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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): Hello everyone. Good afternoon, and welcome to our winter series of talks at the Center for European and Russian Studies at the University of California, Los Angeles.
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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): As many of you know we offer talks on themes of public and scholarly interest relating to Europe and Russia and global context. And this year we're broadcasting via zoom and Facebook.
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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): Our talks are also available for viewing after the event on our website. My name is Lori can heart and I'm Professor of Anthropology and Global Studies at UCLA and director of the Center.
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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): I want to warmly thank our co sponsors for today's talk, the Center for nearly, nearly string studies, the Department of Anthropology and the Center for Social Theory and comparative history.
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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): Welcome to those audiences joining us. And thank you also to serve staff liana Gracia and sang at that time.
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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): It's nearly impossible to do justice to professor, Professor Sarah greens accomplishments in a brief introduction, such as this, but I'll try in a few words to give you a sense of the breadth and fascination of Professor greens work.
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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): There are certainly few anthropologists in Europe Oriente globally, who would not recognize her from both or intellectual and institutional contributions.
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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): To the field of European Studies on the broadest level. Her research focuses on relations and separations across space and how social, political, historical and environmental conditions interrelate
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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): with a particular emphasis on the understanding of border dynamics. She is currently principal investigator on a multi year European Research Council advanced grant called
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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): Focuses on a movement of animals across the Mediterranean region and attempts to control the spread of disease, which is the theme of her talk today.
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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): Or projects, however, have addressed such diverse domains as gender and sexuality London information and communication technologies in Manchester.
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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): conceptions of the natural environment and let landed degradation in northwestern Greece.
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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): Changing ideas and practices concerning nation state borders, particularly those in Eastern and seven and southeastern peripheries of Europe, the circulation of money across borders ideas of trust among new financial elites in the UK and Brexit.
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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): In the UK and Brexit as a process of local and global relocation.
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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): Professor Green is something of a border crossing human herself as she was born in Britain school does a child in Greece studied in the US and completed her undergraduate and graduate degrees at Cambridge University in the UK.
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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): She was formerly head of social anthropology at the University of Manchester and is now a professor of Social, and Cultural Anthropology at the University of Helsinki, Finland.
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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): She's an intensely interdisciplinary and collaborative scholar, who's built a number of research networks concerning EU borders.
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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): And is one of the founders of the Observatory of the refugee and migration crisis in the agenda project in which we've indeed work together.
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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): She's also past president of the European Association of Social anthropologists and of the Society for the anthropology of Europe.
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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): Program Director for the American Anthropological Association in, I believe it was 2013 and CO editor of social anthropology.
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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): She's the author of the prize winning books urban Amazon's and notes from the Balkans and more than 50 articles, including most recently.
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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): Locating disease on the coexistence of diverse concepts of territory and the spread of disease in an edited volume on quarantine titled medicalizing borders.
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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): And I think I'll have to stop there. Or she won't have any time to speak.
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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): I also want to introduce our own Professor but Venkatesh whom we are fortunate to have here with us to offer a response to the talk.
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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): Professor IVANKA IS CURRENTLY assistant professor at UCLA is Institute for society and genetics.
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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): Like Professor Green. He's a versatile interdisciplinary scholar and has been conducting ethnographic and historical research in India, since 2006
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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): On issues related to science and medicine temporality ethics and design, including research on urban design and heat waves 3D printing and the Remaking of the body, and much more.
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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): His forthcoming book at the limits of cure from Duke University Press is the winner of the Joseph W elder prize in the Indian social sciences. He's also just published on this Eleanor transmission of tuberculosis in relation to
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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): The
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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): Animals. I'm grateful for his participation today.
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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): So Professor Green will speak first professor, then God will respond and after that we will open forum for audience questions via the Q AMP a function at the bottom of your zoom screen, and I'll explain that when we get to that point.
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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): So with that, let's formally welcome Professor Sarah green to speak on animal transport and pandemics across the Mediterranean.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Thank you very much.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Lori for that. I'm just going to share my screen now. I hope everybody can see that
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): So it's thank you really very much for inviting me to give this paper.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): It's a work in progress, it's stuff that as you mentioned, I'm doing right now for a research project and I'm still writing it up. The the
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): In Press article you just mentioned locating disease that still, it's not even hot off the presses. It's on the presses at the moment. So any conversation we have later on about the kinds of things I'm going to talk about
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Would will come in very useful for me. And I want to thank her up as well. When cap for for agreeing to commentate and thank you for taking me out of my
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Covert bubble and I've given you an opportunity to to talk about some things okay animal transport and pandemics across the Mediterranean me just explain a little bit about
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Where my interest in animal movements began as Lori mentioned, I worked in the Greek Albanian border region which is there you can see it in the early 1990s, and that area has a very, very long history of sheep and goat pastoralism
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): And these people had a very long history of going along the landscape, according to where the animals needed to be
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Which often cross cut whatever political borders were being built between one century and another. So, these, this is a series of routes.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): That that I measured for the people in the 1990s that where they took their animals across the seasons and several of those roots actually cross
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): The Greek Albanian border, which, as many of you might know was a pretty harsh Cold War border in the past. So I became aware quite early on in that work.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): That animals.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Don't follow the same borders as political borders and people with animals don't do so either. So there were two sets of kind of habitats or uses of the landscape going on, and I knew that from a very long time ago.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Okay, so during the Cold War, of course, those
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Old what called transhumance animal routes.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Were cross cut by quite a harsh border. The Cold War border and and that disrupted quite a lot of animal movements.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): The Iron Curtain movement, we're roughly between 1947 and 1991 in the European region borders were key to that.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): The difference between the kind of communist East and the capitalist West was was partly demonstrated through differences in how each side treated borders and border controls.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): But not everything could be controlled in quite the same way. So there you see a cat completely ignoring the border control.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): So, even during the Cold War, there were different rules for animals. So during the Soviet period. This is a postcard about
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Agricultural Development in the Soviet Union during the 1950s, I found a report from 1958 which was from a US delegation of veterinarians visiting the USSR in 1958 height of the Cold War Christian era, and so on.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): They said in that report.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): That there were new diseases introduced to the USSR by importation of British and US farm animals, for example, with Rio sis brought in 1953 from British capital.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): And us Santa Gertrude his balls. So in other words, even though it was almost impossible to cross the Soviet border as a human being, during that period, there was plenty of trade going on.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): So animals were being moved across that border quite openly enough to be spreading their diseases to each other.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): And veterinarians were openly visiting and these veterinarians from 1958 written they report that they were freely allowed to go wherever they liked on to the collective farms and into the pharmacies and the pharmaceutical
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): factories where they were making veterinary
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Care.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Treatments and so on.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): And that was, that was right at the height of the Cold War. However, the surveillance and management systems.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Of how you you surveyed diseases and managed
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): The spread of disease was completely different on the, on the, on the
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Western side, there was the World Health Organization and the international world Animal Health Organization and there was this thing called the SS on the Soviet side.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Okay, so the point is not everything is controlled in the same way at borders or for the same reasons. The movement of non human animals of really regulated by
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Different laws different logic and often even different locations and that has been going on for centuries. So in a way, what I'm saying is that the
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): The border system for the movement of animals across space by humans is a different border system than the one that involves the movement of humans so migration is not the same thing human migration is not the same thing.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): As animal migration, even when it's humans that are doing the moving
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): It's been going on for a very long time, there was a brisk trade in exotic animals in Roman times, including illegal trafficking of this kind of thing.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Domestic Animals were key part of the colonial period, the, you know,
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): During the entire of the of the colonial period, a huge part of, of taking over different parts of the world involved moving European domesticated animals into the colonial areas, sometimes with devastating effects.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): This is a horse being moved in Alaska.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): This is a camera, which went with the ad for today's talk, but this is actually st Augusta in Australia in the late 19th century.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): And of course, with all this traveling of animals across the planet uninvited guests came to this is a rat.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): And with the the rats and fleas and so on, a lot of diseases came along as well.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Which has been studied for an awful lot of time.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): One of many, many with these kinds of diagrams, showing the relationship between animals and the spread of disease.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): The key here is that I'm not sure I'm probably people do know this now because of
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Approximately 70% of infectious diseases that humans get actually originate in animals.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): And so the movement of animals across the planet has a significant effect on the creation of new pathogens and spread of new diseases.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): And as trade and movement of animals changed the spread of their diseases also changed and this map is actually probably too small for people to see, but it it it
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): It's dropped the map is drawn in a way to make looking like a
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): vein and artery system showing how
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Diseases move across the planet across according to trade routes and how the animals are moved across
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Okay, so that's a kind of a background to how I came into this as Lori mentioned, I'm a, I'm an anthropologist of the Balkans and Mediterranean region and I particularly specialize in borders space place and location.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): And one of the things that got me interested in both the movement of animals.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): across space and also the the the attempts to control the spread of their diseases.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Was that through my work on borders, I began to understand that.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): A lot of social science has focused on borders, mainly for three reasons. One is to do with migration of humans, whether legally illegally.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Or the history of migration and so on. Another has been to do with conflict and wars and security and a third had to do with your kind of questions of identity nationalism and so on.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): And I, as I was doing my research on borders, I began to realize that borders do an awful lot more than that. It's they're not only they are very importantly about migration, but they're not only about that.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): And so I got interested in the movement of animals and their attempts to control the spread of disease.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Through
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Trying to understand what else it is that border regimes do
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): And so I've been looking into over the last few years, kind of, ironically, which means that I know a lot more about the kind of disease that covert 19 years. Then I probably wanted to know.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Because last three or four years I've been looking into history of pandemics across the Mediterranean region and this and trying to manage the spread of these diseases.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): This book by look at look
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Copenhagen empire nearly MODERN. MODERN Mediterranean world. If you're interested in this kind of thing. It's great book.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): What
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): What she showed is that the logic and reasoning of how people have tried to control the spread of disease through the movement of animals and the movement of people across spaces and varied a great deal over time and what it's dependent on the management techniques.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): To control diseases have not been the same as political control over migration, those, those management techniques have always been more transnational even during medieval times, they were international conferences in places like
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Istanbul.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): To try and decide, collectively, what to do about plague.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): And and so while borders were quite often very restricted in terms of the movement of people, the movement of goods, the movement of animals.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): The movement of money in the movement of ideas was a different thing, and attempts to control disease tended to create kind of transnational agreements from very early on.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): But also
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): What borders meant and how both the movement of disease were understood varied across time and between regimes. So in other words, how you, how you try to control the spread of the disease.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Depends on what you think is causing that disease and and
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): That actually one of the interesting things there is, if you start looking at the
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): History of of medicine and the history of veterinary science, you tend to find that the biggest centers of things like the Center for tropical diseases in London, or the pastor
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Institute in Paris, the places that were the strongest colonial powers also invested a great deal of money and getting control over understanding what it is that cause diseases and so that gave them more control over saying what you should do to try and prevent it.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Okay. Now, getting back to the Mediterranean, a place that we've got a lot of historical accounts. One of the oldest written sources, talk about the Mediterranean.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): And it has for centuries been perceived as a place of kind of dangerous commingling. This is a very famous book about the Mediterranean region by Jordan and Purcell called the corrupting see
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): That that some kind of commingling would occur between lots of different places. Lots of different peoples lots of different ideas and that there was always an assumption of danger.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): But it's also fundamentally a place of trade of exchange and travel so people weren't going to avoid it, but it was it was always seen as a slightly edgy place.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): And that set up constant tensions between diverse interests, which included the issue of trying to control the spread of disease that was a constant problem in the Mediterranean region because it was such a, an important trade route between
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Not only western East but North and South.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): So this is a one of the most beautiful are known Nate of the last letters. These are huge buildings that were set up for quarantine.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): During the height of the period when quarantine was seen as a good way of trying to control the seas.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): And what it meant was the sequestering of people, animals and goods it occurred on and off for centuries across this region and the animals were off. We're always sequestered along with people in in sort of 18th, 19th centuries.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): And quarantine. The word itself comes from the word quiet and
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Which means 40 and the reason for 40 years that is actually comes, why you should sequester people for 40 days.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Were comes from the Bible 40 days 40 nights. So it was which points to the fact that religion was also involved in
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): deciding what to do about trying to control the seas.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): And then as now issues of the degree of control over freedom and the control over commerce that quarantine implied was constantly debated so quarantine would be resisted by the British because
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): It stopped cotton trade from Egypt or it would be encouraged by the people of mass, say in France. Well, the people of Paris, in France wanted
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): To resist it, because my say is on the coast and people constantly getting sick in marcee so they wanted quarantine the people of Paris said it was affecting their trade. So they didn't want quarantine and so questions of of sickness.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): And disease and trying to control it. We're always we're coming into clashing with political issues and economic issues.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Really from for the whole period that these kinds of issues with were taken now moving quickly on to modern times. I've got
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): 10 more minutes.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Throughout the late 19th and then into the 20th century, there was an enormous intensification of animal transport of of the movement of animals long distances.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): In in trade.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): And the ice, which is French for the organizers to Internacional a piece of cake.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): It's now called the world Animal Health Organization, which actually predates the World Health Organization and it's bigger than it
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): But it's set up the standards for trying to control disease.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): It began in 1924 out of an outbreak of rinderpest from
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): A load a cargo load of capital IQ originated in India stopped in Antwerp in in Belgium and then ended up in Brazil and it spread rinderpest across the world. And so the he was set up to try and collaborate. It was kind of
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): The modern day equivalent of those conferences in Istanbul, to try and get a handle on the spread of disease.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): In the array. Now sets animal trade standards and certificates for the World Trade Organization. So it's a powerful organization. It also has set up a thing called the world Animal Health Information System where his for short.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Which is supposed to track the location of animals across the world and to set up a warning system for the outbreak of of certain kinds of notifiable diseases, it stopped by veterinarians and its aim is to standardize and coordinate trading health issues. Okay.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Now this gets on to some research I've done across the Mediterranean region.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): What's been happening. The this too much beef burgers that title there comes from a capital trader, who used to be a cattle farmer and he turned trader.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): When I asked him why these kinds of huge, enormous capital transport ships are now being developed and and that he got into the trade rather than farming capital himself he his answer was too many burgers people wanted to eat beef burgers and the beef had to come from somewhere. So
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): What they've been doing is not only transporting huge numbers of live animals much longer distances.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): But the breeds have been bred to become much larger produce much more meat and much more grow much more quickly.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): And so there's been an enormous intensification of animal livestock over the years and an enormous increase in the amount of transport of them around the planet and this. There's also been a change in the wild animal distribution. So,
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Because of the intensification of agriculture and farming that's displaced quite a lot of the wild animals from from where they were and
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): For instance, quite a lot of the world, including the United States actually now has a wild boar, or wild hog problem. There's a huge increase in wild boar and wild hogs, partly because
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): There aren't many as many wolves and bears around to eat them anymore, and partly because of urbanization, which has left lots of free space for these wild hogs to grow and but also
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): There's been a lot of changes in the in the way animals move wild animals move along around the landscape because of changes in in in human use of the land which has changed the balance of how pathogens that cause disease jump between species.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Okay, so this 21st century has been a real live animal trade. Boom. And this shows
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): This diagram which I got from the UN's Food and Agriculture Organization shows quite how many animals move around.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): It's the global live animal export has quadrupled over the last 50 years
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Nearly 2 billion animals a year transported across borders, every day, at least 5 million creatures are in transit.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): And the majority pigs and chickens, followed by sheep and cattle less frequent these days or goats horses come ons and bees. But those still get moved around bees are important because there's been a collapse in the colonies in many areas. They're hugely important for
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): For pollinating crops. And so these are quite often rented out the colonies for pollination particularly actually in California because of the almond crop.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): The honey that comes out of almond almond blossom is actually doesn't taste very good. And it's not for sale so
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): People have to rent the bees.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Because they come from, because they can't actually make honey from it that sellable another story anyway.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): So the contemporary moment. Today's responses to attempt to control disease involves NGOs transnational entities, the EU, the who. One Health remote surveillance.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): It's something called Animo the animal movement system, which is a computer based tracking system for animal movements VIP these kind of vetting the inspection posts assess around up around Europe there are also recommends section posts of different types around North America.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): The, the way veterinary inspection works between Canada and the US is very interesting. The rules for for animals to go from Canada into the US A much stricter than the other way around.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): And the OH ice as well.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): I'm not going to show you that YouTube. I don't have time. But it's very interesting.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): So,
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): All of this movement of animals. Now there's been a strong rhetoric of the disease threat of borderless ness of animal borderless snus and the migration and movement of animals is regularly blamed for the outbreaks of various kinds of
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): New viral diseases.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): And this is an map of a of a
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Of a disease tracking system.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Which is the global early warning system or glues for short and very, very complicated.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Into relation between various international entities that are supposed to be constantly mapping these diseases.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): And here's these kinds of maps that result of the kinds of diseases spread by carnivores by
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Kira Petra, which is that's that's the scene is probably the origin, not only of Ebola and AIDS, but also go bit 19 I can give you some reasons for that actually it's quite interesting later primates rodents.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Sorry, more file which amongst and shrews ungulates cows, goats, etc hoofed animals.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): And then they show this kind of total zoonotic threat map which actually doesn't show the seas for diseases that are spread via the sea and Leon land.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Yet all of that knowledge that so so the way he has been there since 1924 there have been people researching all of these emerging diseases for decades. They've been known about for centuries didn't stop covert from happening.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): What they said when it started to happen was that wild animals and the habitats, the habits of Chinese market traders were initially blamed for kind of transgressive bio mixing
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): This one on seafood market famous one in Wareham that had a it had a wild animal section. It had in it live wolf pups golden staccato scorpions bamboo rat squirrels foxes civets hedgehogs which were actually probably porcupines salamanders turtles and crocodiles.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): And the guardian in January of last year when all of this started to break up and change our lives. Said, Man, maybe that's a direct quote
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Man's destruction of the habitat of many wild species may be partly responsible. So the blame here is that the kinds of borders that we should be having between wild animals and human beings. We've been messing them up is the argument and that that has caused
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): This
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): outbreak of disease. So what you're getting. There is a is a rhetoric often in the media, which is which is often supported by epidemiologists and others, which is suggesting that there is some kind of natural border system.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Between wild animals and domesticated animals and humans and the landscape and the environment and the ecosystem and that somehow we humans have been messing it up, and as a result of that.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Huge epidemics and pandemics have a risen.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): They may or may not be some truth to it. But what I'm trying to point to. There is the fact that underlying all of that argument.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Is an assumption about a border system habitats niches ecosystems nature culture and how they ought to be kept apart. There are a lot of assumptions in there that that that need probably a bit of unpacking
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Okay, so
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Just to conclude
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): I'm going to suggest it's not actually viruses that causes pandemics. I mean, they're essential, you have to have them in order to have disease, but you need certain political, social and economic and ecological conditions in order for diseases to truly take off.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): And so it's a combination of things. It's
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): What I was pointing to, in all this preparedness for the next pandemic that have been done by a lot of international organizations that nevertheless didn't stop.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): From taking off like a rocket
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): That it's not enough to have the new pathogen, you have to also have a number of other conditions that really allows the pathogen to spread unhindered.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): intensification of breeding and transportation of animals has changed the human animal environmental relation which massively increases the chances of a new epidemics from rising
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): And yet at the same time, the movement of animals and their diseases don't follow political borders, this is really important, those borders, those political borders are not designed to contain animals or their diseases.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): And we can perhaps learn from the past in developing responses to the new diseases in the future and what that saying is
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): That if you're going to try and control the spread of disease by closing political borders, it's probably not going to work. And certainly the historical research that have done in the Mediterranean shows that it doesn't, because those borders weren't set up for that.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): And that's why 30 minutes. Thank you.
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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): Thank you so much. Sarah for sketching out this comprehensive and
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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): And really
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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): Provocative
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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): challenge to our thinking about how we should be looking at understanding the relationship between borders and pandemics borders and
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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): And
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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): Disease in general, as well as, of course, the movement. The contrast between the movement of animals and people. I will
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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): Turn to Bharat now for a few reactions and responses to the talk. And then after Professor Bangkok. We will also include any questions from our audience for
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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): The speaker to respond to. So, all right to you.
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Bharat Venkat (UCLA): Thanks, Lori and thanks to Sanjana, again for organizing all of this. And so for this.
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Bharat Venkat (UCLA): Marvelous talk. I have so many thoughts so many questions. I'll try to kind of keep it brief as well.
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Bharat Venkat (UCLA): So you have time to kind of get to some of them. The first was, you know, as I was thinking about this movement of animals what occurred to me was
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Bharat Venkat (UCLA): This question of race, right, the question of race that we think about frequently we think about human migration.
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Bharat Venkat (UCLA): What happens to the question of race as animals cross borders, right. So how are animals actively racialized in their movement. And I was thinking about this specifically. So in my own research for design tuberculosis.
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Bharat Venkat (UCLA): And really interesting story from the early 20th century involves the movement of couse into colonial India and it's concerned that
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Bharat Venkat (UCLA): You know, Jersey cause which were at the time thought to produce the most milk. But when they brought to India. They also were thought to bring tuberculosis with them.
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Bharat Venkat (UCLA): In part because they were so weak right there's an a sense that Jersey cows were not suited to the environments was entirely kind of it and environmental kind of logic disease.
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Bharat Venkat (UCLA): Which was, of course, tied to a nationalist project saying that Indian cows were more inherently stronger and better suited to the environment.
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Bharat Venkat (UCLA): There's a funny story about how Indian cows in the foothills of the Himalayas would be able to walk around quite sure footed
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Bharat Venkat (UCLA): Jersey cars would just fall off the cliffs. Right, so they'd bring these cows in from far distances and they were literally just fall right off the cliff and die right
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Bharat Venkat (UCLA): So there's interesting questions on rationalization in India it even gets further to questions of cast right to the idea is that you could share milk produced by Jersey cows across cast boundaries because
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Bharat Venkat (UCLA): This milk isn't really milk anyway right versus, say for example, milk, participate Indian cows, which is actually properly milk right
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Bharat Venkat (UCLA): So I'm curious about the ways in which these animals become racialized figures in some sense as they move across these borders and never simply just a cow, but a certain kind of cow per se.
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Bharat Venkat (UCLA): And of course, I think this also kind of made me think about chattel slavery.
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Bharat Venkat (UCLA): And enslave folks is somehow being in between human and the animal rights. So how does that kind of how does your talking to force us to rethink the category of the enslaved right as not quite human, nor quite animal
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Bharat Venkat (UCLA): I'll just keep going. The other kind of really interesting thing here was the question for me of location specificity.
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Bharat Venkat (UCLA): So in some sense, the concern around disease spread only matters if you believe that disease can be spread in a certain kind of way right that it moves from body to body from certain kinds of organisms to others.
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Bharat Venkat (UCLA): What if we have a more environmentally grounded notion of disease causation. Right, so
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Bharat Venkat (UCLA): You know, in the early 20th century, especially late 19th as well. You have an idea that disease and healing as well is deeply related to the environment in which you're into your Amelia to your surroundings.
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Bharat Venkat (UCLA): And this is why for example with tuberculosis. Again, you would have this idea that traveling was a form of cure the problem was. You were in a wet soggy environment and me asthmatic environment.
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Bharat Venkat (UCLA): So if you go elsewhere. You can be cured. You'll be better. So I'm wondering about within earlier earlier forms of thinking disease etiology.
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Bharat Venkat (UCLA): Was the concern always about animals, bringing disease or was the problem that they would become disease. Once they arrived was the concern always about them spreading disease, either to other human to humans, or to other animals are in a certain way of thinking was that impossible, right.
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Bharat Venkat (UCLA): So I have many notes and then alongside that to even think about, you know, is there concern, again, is it about
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Bharat Venkat (UCLA): Is it about the animal itself is the concern about the animals spreading to other kinds of animals is a concern about spreading to humans.
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Bharat Venkat (UCLA): Again, thinking about in, you know, in the 19th century, early 20th century, you had this huge debates about whether animal diseases.
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Bharat Venkat (UCLA): Were in fact the same as human diseases. Right. So as bovine TB, the same as human TV. Are these completely distinct. Is there no concern about me. Is there no concern about milk because in fact
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Bharat Venkat (UCLA): These are very, very different forms of disease. And so there's no concern about contamination. So how do we think here about spread and the possibility of spread about what what forms of disease, a proper to what forms of organisms.
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Bharat Venkat (UCLA): A couple more questions and I'll try to be quick about them. The next about the movement of dead animals. So I was really curious about carcasses. Right. So, either for research or as meet
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Bharat Venkat (UCLA): Thinking about how he travels constantly cross borders, how does that change the story of bed when you took the animals that aren't alive.
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Bharat Venkat (UCLA): And even in these movements. What happens to the actual container. The space of movement right so if you have
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Bharat Venkat (UCLA): A huge ship full of cattle, there must be intense protocols around how you regulate that space, right. So how do you ensure
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Bharat Venkat (UCLA): There's enough space for the animal to ship to pee right. How do you ensure the animal is kept healthy. How do you shop. What do you do with animal dies along the way.
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Bharat Venkat (UCLA): Or falls ill do you have to then quarantine all the animals on there. You have to kill the animals thrown overboard. What, what are the kinds of procedures involved with maintaining that space to kind of salubrious space.
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Bharat Venkat (UCLA): And then last two very quickly. I would love to hear in your research about the kind of variegated cultures of Veterinary Medicine, you kind of
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Bharat Venkat (UCLA): I think at one point you can gesture towards this I would imagine that in each of these spaces around the Mediterranean, you have very different conceptions of animal life or
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Bharat Venkat (UCLA): I imagined the forms of even even, even if they're biomedical there's still always in some ways.
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Bharat Venkat (UCLA): In frame by political and religious ideologies right so around may perhaps the sacredness of life or certain forms of life, the sacred as a certain kinds of animals.
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Bharat Venkat (UCLA): Whether calling as an option for example. So my own personal interests.
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Bharat Venkat (UCLA): So I'm curious about the kind of very good cultures of Veterinary Medicine house instantiated and all these different kinds of places and how that might affect the possibility of border control of the animal control and they're going to policing of disease spread
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Bharat Venkat (UCLA): And then last but not least, again, I'm very sorry for this kind of this avalanche of questions. But again, you're talking to. And so productive and so
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Bharat Venkat (UCLA): In many ways, this is your fault. So thank you for that for this kind of bevy of riches.
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Bharat Venkat (UCLA): Finally, I'm curious, but other kinds of borders, right. So not just the kind of political border between states but borders within nations, right. So, specifically the border between, say, the wild and the domestic right between nature and culture.
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Bharat Venkat (UCLA): I'm thinking here about the moment of say domesticated animals into wild spaces and vice versa. The world while fernley. For example, His recent book rural and zones discusses the movement of
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Bharat Venkat (UCLA): I think he describes them as wild geese versus domestic geese and how you tell the difference. Which ones are considered to be dangerous.
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Bharat Venkat (UCLA): But also animal smuggling folks who are going into areas are taught to be natural, bringing animals out or encroaching into those areas of how we think about encroachments across borders that are of course still very much politicized borders, but their internal to the nation state.
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Bharat Venkat (UCLA): So I think I'll stop there and give you some time to respond or ignore all of these questions, talk about other things. Thank you again so much for this talk.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Thank you can I can I answer.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Great questions. All of them, they're lovely.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): So race.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Yeah. Well, yes, it's an interesting question about
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): racialized session and that border between animal human place and what a lot of this research has been made very clear to me.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): That raises a lot of different things. But one of the things that most definitely is is also to do with location.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): It's to do with people who are in the wrong. They came from somewhere where they came from becomes really, really important. But it's also
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Related to
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Different historical moments where the territory is turned into a legitimate territory, either because it's a through through ideas about nation and state and how that's related to kind of rootedness in the soil and Lisa marquees ideas.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): And and and the same goes for certain kinds of animals so
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): When you're
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): It's probably really 18th, 19th century.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Borders where you start to really get an idea of, of what a territory means in nationalist kind of terms that it was also racialized and the animals start taking on these kind of indigenous deity notions as well and that
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): That that
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): So that this idea of the weakness of the cows.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): That because they've kind of, you know, maybe too refined for India or whatever that that sort of idea easily feeds the cross and particularly in the 19th century, these ideas of genealogical
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Trees of the relationship between different creatures and different humans and different it. It had a tendency to just be used across everything so animals, plants, humans.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Languages. So the socio linguistics was developed about this sort of time where you had this genealogy of languages. So you either got pure versions of the language or you got bastardized versions of the language. And it was very related to the same kind of rhetoric.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): So I think that's a really interesting thing and that we're still doing it. I mean, the Australians are constantly complaining at the moment about European rabbits.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Who well they're breeding like rabbits and in in Australia.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): And sort of
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): miscegenation eating the the native Australian rabbits and this sort of thing happens all the time in in in
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Europe there in the French baronies. There are bears and wolves that are increasing in number because they have a lot of national parks there, but on the Spanish side. They have a lot of farming.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Still with sheep and goats and of course the bears and wolves from the French side go over to the Spanish side for free lunch and
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): The Spaniards say they'll shoot them and then the French say you can't shoot them and then and then it because they're part of a national park and the Spanish say will you keep your French bears out of
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Spain it so that the ratio ization is very, very easy once you have that particular idea of territory. I'll be I'll try and be quicker in my answers location specificity.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): This is a really interesting question as well and goes back to, you know, kind of very old theory, which seems to be coming back now with code 19 miasma
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Of something it there's a there's a kind of me as my in the air and it goes down to something which is not nearly often distinguished enough except by perhaps people like Christos learn daddy's and some others who are studying the difference between infection and contagion.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): And the contagion has been studied a lot infection has been studied, much less and the, the, this question of, of what counts is contagious and what is infectious.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): You can be infected with something, but not be contagious right and and
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): The, the, the question of infection has has not been studied nearly as much in anthropology. So I think it should have been done contagion as much more
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Sexy as a topic, perhaps
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): The
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Spreading of animals, the animal itself and whether the, the problem is the spread of the between the animals themselves or between animals and humans. Most often, that seems to be an economic question.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): If, if the animal is spreading the disease between the animals themselves if the animal is worth something that's bad.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): If the animal isn't worth anything. It's not so bad. It's when it jumps to humans that then becomes a problem. But how people understand that spread really varies a lot of cross time. I mean, in the Los Altos in the Mediterranean, mostly the animals and the people were sequestered together.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): And so, it often there wasn't a distinction carcasses, and the movement of dead animals. That's really interesting question. And here there's been some very interesting work done on the US Canadian border. As I was mentioning earlier.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Where beef.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): That that the Canadians have accepted USDA as a good fine regulation of of meat. So they'll accept USDA certified beef.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): On the Canadian side they do almost exactly the same kind of test, but it's not accepted on the US side. So the meat has to be stopped and tested before it can go to market, making it much more expensive. Right. So there's quite a lot of
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): In the movement of dead.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Meat. The, the, quite often the regulations seem to follow economic priorities, more than animal welfare priorities, certainly in the Mediterranean region.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): There are products that can go from the north Mediterranean that is southern Europe to the south Mediterranean that is North Africa. But the reverse is not allowed at all zero, not even honey can move the other direction.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): So,
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): The, the one thing that does get transported hugely
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Is is
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Semen
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): For artificial insemination.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): And when in countries like in parts of the East Mediterranean Lebanon quite a lot of Israel, where there are endemic diseases amongst the animal populations.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Almost all domesticated animals are made through artificial insemination now.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): And and this semen come from mostly
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Europe and Brazil, depending on the animals involved.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): So, so there's kind of cross border travel, that is that is via reproductive material, rather than the animals themselves.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Yeah, there are an enormous number of regulations for these animal transport machines and the capital traders that I've spoken to in in Lebanon and other countries.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): complain about it quite a lot because it takes, you know, for instance, those ships that go from Brazil to Lebanon.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): They take
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): A very long time because they can't travel more than 12 knots
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Speed by regulation and then there's all kinds of complicated things about how to process all their
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Their waste and what happens with dead animals and so on and varied cultures of Veterinary Medicine. He, the way he is trying to stamp that out.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Basically the. Oh, he is there to set standards for veterinary medicine and veterinary training. They're not succeeding very well, at least not in the Maghreb.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): But
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): But
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): In in parts of Jordan. It's doing a bit better. The interesting thing about standardization is of course it's, it has to assume a certain kind of animal husbandry, which of course doesn't
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Work in many different parts of the countries and other kinds of borders within states, yes. Nature culture, while domestic
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): It's a, it's a, an animal smuggling, it's a really important set of questions.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): About the
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): How people understand that and there's a group of really interesting
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Kind of radical animal geographers around at the moment. Now, who are producing work on
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Trying to rethink zoos rethink nature parks are rethink cities and our assumption that cities are places that doesn't don't have wild animals in them which is of course nonsense and they have always had wild animals in them.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): And trying to redo what we assume it's the difference between nature, cultural and wild and and cultural and there's been some excellent work done by them. But I've been talking too long. So I think I need to stop because we've only got very few minutes left.
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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): That's great. Thank you. So thank you. All right.
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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): I'm sure there's more cross conversation between the two of you as well. At this point, but let me also open
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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): The Forum. If any of the participants that would like to contribute a question, please write your question in the Q AMP. A and we'll try to get to it in the interim, Miss Sarah. Let me ask you also you've you've shown us that there is a kind of
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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): A separate flow of political borders of nation states and of the borders of animal transport, there's different regimes, there's there's more trans nationalism, you've argued in the way that people involved with animal transport have thought have have thought conceptually
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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): At the same time, the, the consciousness of the, the problem of disease has, as it were, you know, a sort of
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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): A pose itself to both of these regimes simultaneously. And I'm thinking that we've seen. Of course, the hardening borders in Europe.
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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): In the you that intro you borders have hardened, etc. And I'm wondering whether you see a different political consciousness among those who have been
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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): Aware of the trans nationalism of animal transport than you do amongst people who are focused
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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): Systematically only on the the stopping of migration etc that we've seen as a powerful force in Europe, these days, what kinds of conversations happen between agents who are involved in these two different regimes of movement, you might call them.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): That's a really interesting question, and it would take probably another lecture to
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Do it. But one of the things that I've figured out over the time of doing this research.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Is that people who deal with animals regularly or who have an especially those who have their wealth invested in animals.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Understand landscape and movement across space very differently from people who have real estate or crops.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): And
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): And that the, the idea of movement for those people who who work with animals, whether they are wild animals or domesticated animals.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Is, is you have to do it in the animals have to move around and you have to interact with your neighbors in certain ways, and there's
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): The idea that you could just close a border suddenly and just sort of stay in. It makes no sense whatsoever that whatever answer you find to
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): dealing with the problem of a spread of a disease or or
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Coping with some other kind of threat closing the borders is not the answer. And so that it's, it's something that actually that article. That's impressive. At the moment was trying to look at is
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Because the alternates really were trading people and they were they
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): They, they develop their empire really along a network of roots.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): Of and that's how they understood their territory. Then, which they kind of every time they were expanding, they were connecting up one set of network of routes with another network of routes, rather than just grabbing whatever they could, which is what the British did
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): And and really saw there and spent, you know, however, different the different the Ottoman Empire was at different times.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): They took pride in securing their roads and their roots always throughout that period. And it's so it's it's the way they really understood
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): And the way they manage the people in the territory was also very much to do with well we can believe what you like to pay as long as you pay taxes and do whatever
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): So, so I think in that question is what do people do when confronted with something like and there's been the closing of borders internally within the EU.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): It's it's a knee jerk reaction, I think, to what how people when they feel threatened. When you understand what your special arrangement is you do whatever you you think is right for when you feel threatened, which is okay, close the borders.
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): And it's not, it's
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Sarah Green (University of Helsinki): And the people who are working with the animals. No, that's not going to work.
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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): Thanks. I think we will probably need to hear from those veterinarians and animal people in deriving a new regime for a new period of history that we have obviously moved into with the
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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): With the global event of carbon 19. Thank you so much, Professor Green and Professor vanguard for these wonderful presentations and comments and as always, to our audience and our staff.
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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): Please check our website for next week's lecture.
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Laurie Kain Hart (Director, UCLA CERS): Which will be on Friday 20 the January 29 instead of Tuesday with Professor DFS, sir, who will join us to speak about the somewhat unlikely topic of his comic strip on the story of police violence in the Paris suburbs. So thanks again to all of you and good afternoon from us.