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i'd like to welcome everyone to our

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third

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center for chinese studies scholars

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forum

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my name is michael berry i'm the

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director of the center for chinese

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studies

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and it is a great pleasure to be with

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everybody today

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the center for chinese studies hosts a

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variety of different types of events we

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have artist talks

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scholarly lectures teach-ins and one of

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the

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new formats that we began a little less

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than a year ago

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were the scholars forum which is an

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attempt

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to bring together professors faculty

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graduate students lecturers from

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the ucla chinese studies community to

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share their research

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to disparate audiences and mostly to

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build bridges amongst the ucla chinese

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studies community

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and so one of the strange aspects of

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this form is that we pair up

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scholars from different backgrounds with

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different training

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coming from different disciplines and

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the idea is to build communities to

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build intellectual connections where

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maybe they might not normally be found

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and so each session we pair up

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anthropologists with economists with

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people from all over campus and today

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it's my great pleasure to introduce our

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three speakers

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who represent uh well two different

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fields but

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also there are two historians but also

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working on different aspects of chinese

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history

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so without further ado i'm going to

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introduce our speakers

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each speaker will have approximately 20

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minutes to deliver their lecture

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and then we will open up the floor to

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discussions which you can type

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in the chat function and hopefully we'll

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have a lively dialogue

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our first speaker is professor richard

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van glam he is

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distinguished professor of history at

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ucla

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and the author of numerous articles and

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books on

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chinese history including fountain of

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fortune

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money and monetary policy in china one

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thousand to seventeen

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hundred the economic history of china

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from antiquity to the 19th century

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and he is more most recently co-editor

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of the cambridge economic history of

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china

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our second speaker will be professor

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helen reese she is professor of

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ethnomusicology at ucla

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previously she studied at the shanghai

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conservatory of music and has done a lot

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of

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field research in yunnan over the years

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she is the author of nashi music in

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modern china

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and has also collaborated on the

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production of 13

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cds of yunnan music and i think part of

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her talk today will also be talking

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about the kind of creative side

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and her interactions with filmmaking

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and reporting music and finally our

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third speaker will be

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sunkyu li a phd candidate in history at

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ucla

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her dissertation maps shows how maps

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shape the imagination of political

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boundaries

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in ming era china and so without further

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ado i'm going to hand

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over the microphone to my colleague

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professor van glan

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thank you michael and thank you for uh

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all of your efforts to support the

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community and

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and to keep us in touch with each other

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during these uh very difficult uh times

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uh and thank you to everyone for joining

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us

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this afternoon what i'm going to be

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talking about

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today let me get my

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powerpoint up is

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a small part of a larger project on

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exchange in maritime east asia from the

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9th

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to the 17th centuries i'm going to be

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specifically talking about the

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phenomenon of wako

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or wako in japanese that is say

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japanese piracy which is usually

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studied from the perspective of piracy

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as the name suggests uh this

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painting and commemorating the defense

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of a chinese city

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against a waco attack a very vernacular

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style

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uh painting what i particularly like

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about it is

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that the all of the waco

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pirates here are shown

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down here as well are shown holding a

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japanese curved sword in one hand

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and a folded fan in the other hand

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the folded fan was uh something

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an import from japan

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that had become a

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significant part of elite chinese

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culture

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since the song dynasty it was really the

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ultimate emblem of being japanese so we

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see in this picture

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that the attackers are being identified

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as japanese through these particular

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emblems

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but in fact the waco were neither

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japanese nor pirates

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instead they were multinational merchant

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companies who

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in response to the ming maritime

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ban on overseas trade had turned to

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smuggling

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especially in the 16th century silver

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from japan where the silver strikes

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in the 1520s the iwami mines had set off

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a real boom

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in response to the smuggling and this

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enhanced

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smuggling in 1548 the ming

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launched uh military offensive uh

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against the walcott that led to

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a full-scale war for the the next decade

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uh there are a whole series of genre

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paintings

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showing the ming resistance to pirate

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attacks although

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indeed it was the ming who launched the

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offensive

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and one thing i just want to draw

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attention to in this

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particular illustration is the

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portuguese

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swivel cannon down here mounted

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on the waco ship

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the use of gunpowder weapons also

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becomes an important part

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of this story

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after a decade plus of war uh the ming

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triumphed in a military sense but it was

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a very costly victory

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that led to the repeal of the ban

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on overseas trade in 1567 a key moment

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not just

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ming history but indeed in global

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history

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that led to the formation of the first

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truly global trade network

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that was centered above all

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on the chinese import of silver from

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japan

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and also from spain's economy spain's

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colonies

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in the americas but what i want to do

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today is to look at this moment in east

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asian history

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as a moment when an alternative

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to the chinese model of the bureaucratic

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agrarian empire emerges

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in the form of what i'm calling here

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the port polity that is to say

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a state whose political economy is based

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not on land revenues but rather on the

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profits

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of maritime trade there are various

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examples of this

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across the east asian maritime world the

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uq kingdom and the okinawa archipelago

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the wind regime in central vietnam

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the european colonial footholds in macau

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manila batavia

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in japan as we'll be talking about as

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well

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and perhaps we can also include the 17th

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century dung

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regime in coastal china and fujian and

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taiwan

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as well so these port qualities then are

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found

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on the alliance between merchants above

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all

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chinese but really multinational

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companies of merchants

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and the rulers of these states and i'm

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going to examine this port polity

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relationship through two figures

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that of wonzer one of the waco captains

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the most renowned of them

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and otomo soren one of the

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daimyo in kyushu in southern japan

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uh wanger was from plajo the famous

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center

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of merchants who had abandoned

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the salt trade for maritime commerce

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it first appears in the historical

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record in 1540

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when he and another investor build a

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large ship at guangzhou that they

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use to carry sulfur silk

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and cotton goods to siam to thailand

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the waco operate

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primarily out of shwangyu here

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off the coast of ningbo

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and we're mostly engaged with

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trade in southeast asia and

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in japan the

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xuangyu was said in the 1540s to also

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have

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a colony of about 3 000 portuguese

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so again very much a multinational

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setting

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in 1542 when wangzhou was returning on a

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voyage from siam

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his ship was blown off course and wound

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up landing at

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tanegashima this island here

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off the southernmost coast of kyushu

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in japan that was a momentous event

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in its own right he was carrying

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portuguese passengers and at this moment

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in time

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the portuguese were not traveling on

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their own ships in

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east asia instead they were on the

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so-called waco ships so they brought the

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first portuguese

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to japan and also the first gunpowder

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weapons which will have a very

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transformative

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impact on the civil wars that were then

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raging in japan

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the kyushu daimyo were very much

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engaged in these civil wars competing

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for hegemony both within

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the island of kyushu and really for

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overall supremacy

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in the japanese archipelago they sought

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to capitalize

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on foreign trade again this trade of

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silver to

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china and now the portuguese

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as potential allies especially to gain

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access to gunpowder weapons

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the person or the the daimyo that i'm

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going to talk

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most about is the ultimo here in

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northeastern kyushu their capital is at

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bungo funai uh

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which is the modern city of oita

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the ultimo damio had long been active in

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tribute missions

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to the maine but the ming had suspended

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those

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exchanges in 1523

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in 1543 the ultimo sent their own

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mission to ningbo

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it was rejected before returning to

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japan

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they stopped at xuangyu and engaged in

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some

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trade with the chinese merchants there

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00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:46,959

and

292

00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:47,839

also picked up longer and brought him

293

00:11:46,959 --> 00:11:51,279

back to

294

00:11:47,839 --> 00:11:53,279

bungo funai and from that point we begin

295

00:11:51,279 --> 00:11:56,160

to see the waco

296

00:11:53,279 --> 00:11:57,760

longter and other waco captains

297

00:11:56,160 --> 00:12:00,959

developing very close

298

00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:04,959

relationships with the daimyo and kyushu

299

00:12:00,959 --> 00:12:07,839

the train really booms in the 1540s

300

00:12:04,959 --> 00:12:10,160

uh wanger actually winds up settling not

301

00:12:07,839 --> 00:12:13,680

at bungufunai but over here at

302

00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:17,040

hirado in the matsura

303

00:12:13,680 --> 00:12:17,680

domain again because this trade is

304

00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:20,000

booming

305

00:12:17,680 --> 00:12:21,200

the ming launched their offensive

306

00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:25,120

against shuangyu

307

00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:27,440

in 1548 longer by virtue of being in

308

00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:30,800

japan at the time was one of the few

309

00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:34,079

waco leaders to survive

310

00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:37,360

uh but wanger did not join in on

311

00:12:34,079 --> 00:12:40,160

the waco reprisals against the ming the

312

00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:40,880

wacko attacks on ming settlements and

313

00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:44,079

cities

314

00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:47,920

he was very much a businessman

315

00:12:44,079 --> 00:12:51,519

piracy was bad for business he tried to

316

00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:55,760

negotiate with the ming he even

317

00:12:51,519 --> 00:12:59,040

would on occasion send back captured

318

00:12:55,760 --> 00:13:02,560

pirates to the ming to demonstrate his

319

00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:04,959

loyalty to the main emperor

320

00:13:02,560 --> 00:13:06,000

so he's engaging in this more or less

321

00:13:04,959 --> 00:13:09,200

constant process

322

00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:10,399

of negotiation with ming envoys the ming

323

00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:13,760

envoys found him

324

00:13:10,399 --> 00:13:17,120

arrogant he was calling himself king of

325

00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:20,959

the pacific seas the ping hai wong

326

00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:24,240

he was holding court at his great estate

327

00:13:20,959 --> 00:13:25,360

in shirado and expecting lots of

328

00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:28,800

deference from the

329

00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:32,320

the ming envoys and harado itself was

330

00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:34,959

turning into a real boomtown a japanese

331

00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:38,079

courtier who came from kyoto

332

00:13:34,959 --> 00:13:41,519

at this moment in time referred to

333

00:13:38,079 --> 00:13:46,160

hirato as the capital the miyako

334

00:13:41,519 --> 00:13:50,480

of the west the parallel to the miyako

335

00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:54,399

the capital of kyoto itself in 1556

336

00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:57,680

the ming envoys offered trade privileges

337

00:13:54,399 --> 00:13:57,680

uh to wangzur

338

00:13:57,839 --> 00:14:03,440

and he accepted that offer returned with

339

00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:05,519

them to ningbo

340

00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:06,800

but once he arrived in ningua he was

341

00:14:05,519 --> 00:14:09,040

imprisoned

342

00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:11,120

the main court deliberated whether to

343

00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:13,040

honor their offer

344

00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:14,839

but in the end decided not to and

345

00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:19,120

eventually wanger was

346

00:14:14,839 --> 00:14:21,839

executed at this point in time

347

00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:22,639

the ultimate were the most aggressive

348

00:14:21,839 --> 00:14:26,399

daimyo

349

00:14:22,639 --> 00:14:30,480

in trying to build a port polity

350

00:14:26,399 --> 00:14:34,160

otomo sodin succeeds his father

351

00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:35,120

in 1551 uh he maneuvers to place his

352

00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:38,079

brother

353

00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:40,000

as the daimyo of yamaguchi which had

354

00:14:38,079 --> 00:14:43,040

been the

355

00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:44,399

previous base from which the japanese

356

00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:48,800

tribute missions have

357

00:14:44,399 --> 00:14:52,480

been sent to china

358

00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:53,199

he launches his own efforts to send

359

00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:56,320

missions

360

00:14:53,199 --> 00:14:57,199

to china he also tries to cultivate

361

00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:59,519

relations

362

00:14:57,199 --> 00:15:01,279

with the portuguese he invites francis

363

00:14:59,519 --> 00:15:04,320

xavier to come to bungo

364

00:15:01,279 --> 00:15:07,360

allows him to build a

365

00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:10,399

monastic establishment there

366

00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:11,360

nominally declares his conversion to

367

00:15:10,399 --> 00:15:13,279

christianity

368

00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:14,480

but he's mostly interested in the

369

00:15:13,279 --> 00:15:16,959

portuguese

370

00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:18,959

merchants and it's interesting to see

371

00:15:16,959 --> 00:15:21,519

from the portuguese perspective

372

00:15:18,959 --> 00:15:22,880

how significant bungo was in their

373

00:15:21,519 --> 00:15:26,160

perception of japan

374

00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:29,920

at this time this portuguese

375

00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:30,639

map of uh japan from the late 16th

376

00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:33,920

century

377

00:15:30,639 --> 00:15:35,920

uh shows bungo down here

378

00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:38,079

and what at least to my naked eye looks

379

00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:41,680

like the largest castle

380

00:15:38,079 --> 00:15:44,800

except for the other miyako kyoto

381

00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:45,440

the capital uh here uh indeed the whole

382

00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:48,079

island

383

00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:48,959

of kyushu is actually labeled bungo as

384

00:15:48,079 --> 00:15:51,759

you can see

385

00:15:48,959 --> 00:15:52,880

here and the real portuguese interest in

386

00:15:51,759 --> 00:15:55,839

japan

387

00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:57,199

is indicated by the fact that other than

388

00:15:55,839 --> 00:16:01,519

cities the only other

389

00:15:57,199 --> 00:16:04,720

place name uh is the argenti fodini

390

00:16:01,519 --> 00:16:08,800

the silver mines of iwami up here

391

00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:11,839

on the western coast of honshu

392

00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:16,320

this is a map of the city of bungo

393

00:16:11,839 --> 00:16:19,519

funai you can see the the daimyo's

394

00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:22,880

mansion and headquarters here at the

395

00:16:19,519 --> 00:16:26,959

center if we look at the schematic

396

00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:29,279

diagram this is the sorry down here is

397

00:16:26,959 --> 00:16:31,839

the ultimo

398

00:16:29,279 --> 00:16:33,680

daimyo headquarters we can see that the

399

00:16:31,839 --> 00:16:36,880

chinese quarter

400

00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:41,759

the toji machi is right here

401

00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:45,600

right in front of the ultimo

402

00:16:41,759 --> 00:16:47,839

residence over here is the residence

403

00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:48,880

of the most prominent japanese merchant

404

00:16:47,839 --> 00:16:50,720

in town

405

00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:53,199

so you can see how the chinese were

406

00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:55,759

really occupying the center of the city

407

00:16:53,199 --> 00:16:58,800

and not just merchants but artisans

408

00:16:55,759 --> 00:17:04,799

doctors and others as well had come

409

00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:07,839

to to funai the portuguese

410

00:17:04,799 --> 00:17:11,520

church and monasteries is over here

411

00:17:07,839 --> 00:17:13,280

and there's a whole row of uh

412

00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:16,720

buddhist temples and so they're

413

00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:20,720

ensconced on the margin of the city

414

00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:23,760

with the other uh temples as it were

415

00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:27,039

in 1556 uh

416

00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:28,480

sorian and his brother send a mission to

417

00:17:27,039 --> 00:17:31,520

ningbo

418

00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:32,480

they have the seal that was previously

419

00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:35,039

used

420

00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:36,080

by the japanese tribute missions

421

00:17:35,039 --> 00:17:39,120

reproduced

422

00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:42,000

here but when

423

00:17:39,120 --> 00:17:43,520

of course it's arriving just after

424

00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:46,799

wanger has been

425

00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:48,000

imprisoned and when tensions are at

426

00:17:46,799 --> 00:17:50,400

their height

427

00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:51,919

so this mission was not received as

428

00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:54,799

proper envoys

429

00:17:51,919 --> 00:17:56,880

instead treated it as waco their ship

430

00:17:54,799 --> 00:18:00,000

was scuttled

431

00:17:56,880 --> 00:18:03,039

undaunted soren sends missions to

432

00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:05,280

siam to goa to

433

00:18:03,039 --> 00:18:06,559

europe he sends the first mission

434

00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:09,280

japanese missions

435

00:18:06,559 --> 00:18:10,559

to europe that travels to lisbon the

436

00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:14,880

portuguese capital

437

00:18:10,559 --> 00:18:17,679

and also to see the pope in rome

438

00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:18,880

but thereafter saurian suffers a series

439

00:18:17,679 --> 00:18:21,840

of setbacks

440

00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:24,080

in 1566 his brother yoshinaga is

441

00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:27,679

defeated by the mori

442

00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:30,880

they lose the province of yamaguchi

443

00:18:27,679 --> 00:18:32,799

the mori gained control of the iwami

444

00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:36,640

silver mines

445

00:18:32,799 --> 00:18:38,960

in 1571

446

00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:40,000

the the silver mines would be up here

447

00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:43,440

again this is

448

00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:44,720

matt shows the mori in control of this

449

00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:47,520

region

450

00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:49,600

uh and the portuguese had shifted their

451

00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:53,520

attention away from bungo finai

452

00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:56,880

to hirado as because it was much easier

453

00:18:53,520 --> 00:19:01,120

access to the actual sources of

454

00:18:56,880 --> 00:19:03,120

silver but in 1570 the portuguese

455

00:19:01,120 --> 00:19:04,400

established a new trading base at

456

00:19:03,120 --> 00:19:07,840

nagasaki

457

00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:09,520

the omar daimyo offer more

458

00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:12,320

favorable accommodations to the

459

00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:15,039

portuguese including

460

00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:16,640

conversion to christianity the matra

461

00:19:15,039 --> 00:19:20,160

daimyo had refused

462

00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:20,880

to do so so the portuguese from 1570

463

00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:23,200

onward

464

00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:24,320

are really basing all their trade

465

00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:27,520

operations

466

00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:30,960

here at nagasaki and bungo funai

467

00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:33,440

is left out in the cold

468

00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:36,320

also at this time the civil wars are

469

00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:38,559

intensifying now fueled by the muskets

470

00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:41,280

and cannons supplied by the boko

471

00:19:38,559 --> 00:19:42,240

and the portuguese oda nobunaga's

472

00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:46,160

victory

473

00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:50,080

at nagashino in 1575 was decisive

474

00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:53,280

in his march toward unification of japan

475

00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:57,120

in 1586 uh bungo funai

476

00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:59,440

is sacked and raised by the shimazu

477

00:19:57,120 --> 00:20:00,320

daimyo their rivals down here in

478

00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:03,440

southern

479

00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:07,120

kyushu and that effectively uh put an

480

00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:10,320

end to the otomo ambitions of a maritime

481

00:20:07,120 --> 00:20:14,080

empire and of achieving political

482

00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:17,919

supremacy within the archipelago

483

00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:21,120

the trio of unifiers nobunaga hideyoshi

484

00:20:17,919 --> 00:20:22,159

tokugawa ieyasu all pursued a

485

00:20:21,120 --> 00:20:24,559

mercantilist

486

00:20:22,159 --> 00:20:26,320

model of state building based on

487

00:20:24,559 --> 00:20:28,159

commercial wealth

488

00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:30,159

that it represents again this kind of

489

00:20:28,159 --> 00:20:31,440

port quality phenomenon that i'm

490

00:20:30,159 --> 00:20:34,720

referring to

491

00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:37,520

the unifiers all established monopolies

492

00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:40,000

on silver mines and foreign trade

493

00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:41,039

the building of the castle towns was

494

00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:44,080

entrusted to

495

00:20:41,039 --> 00:20:45,919

privileged merchants often those engaged

496

00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:48,799

in foreign trade they issue new

497

00:20:45,919 --> 00:20:49,679

silver currencies in order to facilitate

498

00:20:48,799 --> 00:20:51,520

a collection

499

00:20:49,679 --> 00:20:52,960

of revenues and the building of their

500

00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:57,360

war chests

501

00:20:52,960 --> 00:21:00,799

hideyoshi of course builds a navy

502

00:20:57,360 --> 00:21:04,799

to launch the invasions of korea

503

00:21:00,799 --> 00:21:06,080

in the 1590s this is the port that he

504

00:21:04,799 --> 00:21:09,280

builds out of nothing the

505

00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:11,679

karatsu in kyushu

506

00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:13,039

to to launch the invasions and we see

507

00:21:11,679 --> 00:21:17,840

some of the

508

00:21:13,039 --> 00:21:22,080

huge japanese battleships

509

00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:25,280

leaving the harbor in this painting

510

00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:27,600

when tokugawa he also comes to power

511

00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:30,159

at the beginning of the 17th century he

512

00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:32,799

encourages foreign trade

513

00:21:30,159 --> 00:21:33,840

under the so-called red seal licenses

514

00:21:32,799 --> 00:21:35,600

that are granted

515

00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:37,600

not just to japanese but to foreign

516

00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:39,600

merchants as well

517

00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:41,600

here we have a painting of a red seal

518

00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:44,080

ship coming from

519

00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:45,919

nagasaki it's a large ship it has over

520

00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:48,000

200 merchants according to the

521

00:21:45,919 --> 00:21:51,039

inscription here

522

00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:53,440

pulling into hoi on which was

523

00:21:51,039 --> 00:21:54,799

the port of the wind regime in central

524

00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:57,280

vietnam

525

00:21:54,799 --> 00:21:58,400

that again is another example of a port

526

00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:00,799

polity

527

00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:02,000

state that depends very much on maritime

528

00:22:00,799 --> 00:22:04,960

commerce

529

00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:06,240

the city of huion itself is really

530

00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:09,760

divided into the

531

00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:12,559

japan town which is labeled up here

532

00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:13,679

and the chinatown the tojinmachi that is

533

00:22:12,559 --> 00:22:17,200

labeled

534

00:22:13,679 --> 00:22:20,320

down here however japan

535

00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:23,840

the eyasu's successors

536

00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:26,080

turned away from the port polity model

537

00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:28,240

and instead embraced the chinese

538

00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:30,480

bureaucratic empire

539

00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:31,600

the other port polities disappear again

540

00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:35,520

the ones in kyushu

541

00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:38,960

are absorbed into the unified japan

542

00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:41,840

uq is absorbed into the shimazu domain

543

00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:42,320

in the first decade of the 17th century

544

00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:45,520

this

545

00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:48,640

win regime based at hoyon

546

00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:50,080

after it annexes the mekong delta at the

547

00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:53,760

late 17th century

548

00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:54,960

also turns to the chinese bureaucratic

549

00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:58,159

agrarian state

550

00:22:54,960 --> 00:23:02,080

model again the last hurrah

551

00:22:58,159 --> 00:23:03,440

of the port polity is perhaps the jung

552

00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:06,159

regime

553

00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:06,880

that survives until the qing conquest of

554

00:23:06,159 --> 00:23:10,480

taiwan

555

00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:14,080

in 1683 at that point

556

00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:14,559

the port polity disappears from east

557

00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:16,559

asia

558

00:23:14,559 --> 00:23:18,400

and also from historical consciousness

559

00:23:16,559 --> 00:23:20,799

this idea that there was an alternative

560

00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:24,480

to the chinese bureaucratic state

561

00:23:20,799 --> 00:23:27,760

disappears from from our

562

00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:30,960

historical consciousness as well the

563

00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:32,480

legacy however of the waco and the port

564

00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:36,159

polity

565

00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:40,240

can be seen perhaps in the 18th century

566

00:23:36,159 --> 00:23:43,039

chinese diaspora into southeast asia

567

00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:43,600

which also includes a number of cases in

568

00:23:43,039 --> 00:23:45,679

which

569

00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:46,720

chinese merchants themselves set up

570

00:23:45,679 --> 00:23:50,080

city-states

571

00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:52,960

for example in the gulf of siam

572

00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:53,760

that operate until at least the end of

573

00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:56,799

the

574

00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:59,279

18th century but

575

00:23:56,799 --> 00:24:00,880

basically throughout east asia the

576

00:23:59,279 --> 00:24:03,440

chinese model has

577

00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:04,480

emerged triumphant over the course of

578

00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:08,799

the 17th

579

00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:08,799

century so i think i will

580

00:24:09,279 --> 00:24:14,320

finish up there and turn it over to

581

00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:16,559

helen

582

00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:19,360

uh and now we're going to make another

583

00:24:16,559 --> 00:24:22,559

kind of radical shift in time and place

584

00:24:19,360 --> 00:24:24,159

and go to sunkyu lee's presentation on

585

00:24:22,559 --> 00:24:26,880

maps in ming china

586

00:24:24,159 --> 00:24:28,720

and again part of this effort is not

587

00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:30,799

only to introduce us to

588

00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:32,640

other faculties research but also the

589

00:24:30,799 --> 00:24:34,320

younger generation of researchers that

590

00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:37,200

are graduate students

591

00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:38,880

in particular and so it's quite exciting

592

00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:40,159

to see what the next generation is

593

00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:42,320

bringing to chinese studies

594

00:24:40,159 --> 00:24:43,919

with that i will hand it over to sun

595

00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:48,400

cube

596

00:24:43,919 --> 00:24:48,400

um thank you so much let me share the

597

00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:01,840

screen

598

00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:08,000

i was wondering whether the screen is

599

00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:11,440

clear and my voice is clear

600

00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:14,720

is it yeah it's great okay great

601

00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:17,840

um yeah so my name is anguli a phd

602

00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:19,440

candidate at ucla history department

603

00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:21,039

i am currently working on the

604

00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:23,200

dissertation on how

605

00:25:21,039 --> 00:25:25,200

imaginings of border was changed

606

00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:27,440

throughout the ming dynasty

607

00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:29,200

so today i'm going to present a part of

608

00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:31,120

my dissertation chapter

609

00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:33,600

about the changing idea of the great

610

00:25:31,120 --> 00:25:36,000

wall in the mid 16th century

611

00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:36,799

i'm very grateful for this opportunity

612

00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,960

because

613

00:25:36,799 --> 00:25:41,120

i am in a kind of early stage of

614

00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:43,440

drafting this particular chapter

615

00:25:41,120 --> 00:25:45,360

so any comments or suggestions would be

616

00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:48,080

extremely helpful

617

00:25:45,360 --> 00:25:48,640

so originally i advertised that i will

618

00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:50,960

discuss

619

00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:53,200

two things in today's talk one is the

620

00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:56,240

new historical narrative of the his

621

00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:58,799

the great wall and the other is its

622

00:25:56,240 --> 00:26:00,080

cartographic depiction but due to the

623

00:25:58,799 --> 00:26:03,600

limited time

624

00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:05,600

i will focus instead on the first part

625

00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:07,520

so i apologize for the false

626

00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:09,360

advertisement but feel free to reach out

627

00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:11,039

to me via email if you are interested in

628

00:26:09,360 --> 00:26:14,480

the second part of the

629

00:26:11,039 --> 00:26:18,159

topic my

630

00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:20,720

current research was inspired

631

00:26:18,159 --> 00:26:23,600

by the book called the great wall of

632

00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:25,679

china from history to myth

633

00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:26,799

dr arthur wardrone challenges the

634

00:26:25,679 --> 00:26:29,760

existing myth

635

00:26:26,799 --> 00:26:32,159

of an ancient origin and timeless

636

00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:34,640

presence of the great wall

637

00:26:32,159 --> 00:26:35,760

instead he argues that the current form

638

00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:39,520

of great wall

639

00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:41,919

as you see in the his book front page as

640

00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:42,880

a stone made and elaborate defensive

641

00:26:41,919 --> 00:26:45,279

structure

642

00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:47,760

only started to be built after the late

643

00:26:45,279 --> 00:26:50,559

1540s

644

00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:54,080

what i found interesting was that some

645

00:26:50,559 --> 00:26:56,960

maps printed in the 1530s and 1540s

646

00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:59,039

already depicted the great wall as if it

647

00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:00,559

existed throughout the entire northern

648

00:26:59,039 --> 00:27:04,559

frontier

649

00:27:00,559 --> 00:27:06,720

so if you can see here is the yaudon

650

00:27:04,559 --> 00:27:08,640

province and then the wall-like

651

00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:11,520

structure goes all the way

652

00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:11,840

throughout the northern uh frontier to

653

00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:15,840

the

654

00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:15,840

jawi pass in the gansu

655

00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:21,600

encircling the entire main northern

656

00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:22,799

frontier this map looks contradictory

657

00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:26,000

from the fact that

658

00:27:22,799 --> 00:27:28,880

some walls did not even exist or was

659

00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:30,240

still under construction in the reality

660

00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:32,080

that's when i

661

00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:33,760

started to read closely what maps and

662

00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:36,480

writings about the great wall was

663

00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:37,440

actually talking about so my findings

664

00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:39,679

are two

665

00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:41,679

first maps and writings did not simply

666

00:27:39,679 --> 00:27:43,840

reflect what already existed

667

00:27:41,679 --> 00:27:44,960

or the great wall as a physical

668

00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:46,880

structure

669

00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:49,679

instead these maps and writings

670

00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:52,240

themselves recreated and transformed the

671

00:27:49,679 --> 00:27:54,720

idea of the great wall

672

00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:55,679

second this great wall as a conceptual

673

00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:57,440

idea

674

00:27:55,679 --> 00:27:58,799

interacted with the great wall as a

675

00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:00,640

physical structure

676

00:27:58,799 --> 00:28:03,840

which was being built during the same

677

00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,840

period of the time

678

00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:09,919

so in today's talk i will introduce two

679

00:28:07,679 --> 00:28:11,520

examples showing the development of a

680

00:28:09,919 --> 00:28:15,840

new historical narrative

681

00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:16,960

of the great wall in the 1530s and 1540s

682

00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:19,279

both wang chung

683

00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:20,159

and weihan created a new historical

684

00:28:19,279 --> 00:28:22,559

narrative

685

00:28:20,159 --> 00:28:24,559

rejecting the existing idea that ancient

686

00:28:22,559 --> 00:28:26,480

great wall was a negative historical

687

00:28:24,559 --> 00:28:28,559

example

688

00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:30,559

instead their historical narratives made

689

00:28:28,559 --> 00:28:31,440

the contemporaneous world building more

690

00:28:30,559 --> 00:28:34,640

acceptable

691

00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:34,640

and even desirable

692

00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:39,039

one of the most well-known stories

693

00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:41,679

related to the great wall is the legend

694

00:28:39,039 --> 00:28:43,600

of lady mong jang or mong jang li

695

00:28:41,679 --> 00:28:45,520

whose husband was dead during his

696

00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:45,919

conscripted labor of building the great

697

00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:49,039

wall

698

00:28:45,919 --> 00:28:50,240

during the qin dynasty this southern

699

00:28:49,039 --> 00:28:52,080

song illustration

700

00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:53,679

captured the dramatic moment that her

701

00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:55,279

weeping for

702

00:28:53,679 --> 00:28:56,960

the deceased husband brought down a

703

00:28:55,279 --> 00:29:00,399

section of a wall

704

00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:01,120

and then his her husband's bones were

705

00:29:00,399 --> 00:29:04,480

revealed

706

00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:06,720

here so

707

00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:07,840

this legend reflects a critical attitude

708

00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:10,000

toward the great wall

709

00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:12,399

treating it as a symbol of state over

710

00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:16,159

exploitation of people

711

00:29:12,399 --> 00:29:18,000

and which led to the early demise of the

712

00:29:16,159 --> 00:29:20,480

qin dynasty

713

00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:21,200

according to dr nicholas tuckett such

714

00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:24,159

widespread

715

00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:25,039

anti-war sentiment affected later policy

716

00:29:24,159 --> 00:29:27,520

choices

717

00:29:25,039 --> 00:29:29,520

for instance forcing some politicians to

718

00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:32,000

build different types of defense

719

00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:34,159

structures other than long wall or in

720

00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:36,559

chinese chiang chang

721

00:29:34,159 --> 00:29:38,480

this case leads us to the question then

722

00:29:36,559 --> 00:29:40,720

what made difference for the mean

723

00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:41,760

and made the reconstruction of the great

724

00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:44,640

wall possible

725

00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:44,640

during this period

726

00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:52,960

we too jean's wall which was often cited

727

00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:55,080

as the oldest main wall

728

00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:57,279

started in a response to a new

729

00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:59,440

geopolitical condition in the 15th

730

00:29:57,279 --> 00:30:02,559

century

731

00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:06,000

the orders plane were in chinese hotel

732

00:30:02,559 --> 00:30:09,200

area is located within the

733

00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:10,880

northern loop of the yellow river the

734

00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:12,480

olympian court established several

735

00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:16,080

forward garrisons such as

736

00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:18,399

um however

737

00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:20,480

due to the budgetary concerns the court

738

00:30:18,399 --> 00:30:22,480

withdrew these forward garrisons in the

739

00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:26,320

early 15th century

740

00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:28,159

later mongols took over this area

741

00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:29,840

since the mid 15th century with

742

00:30:28,159 --> 00:30:30,960

increasing security threats from the

743

00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:32,720

mongols

744

00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:34,320

the ming of fisherdom continued to

745

00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:38,240

discuss what to do with these

746

00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:40,480

circumstances the laws of the hotel area

747

00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:41,520

either conduct military campaigns to

748

00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:44,559

regain hotel

749

00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:47,520

and re-establish the yellow river

750

00:30:44,559 --> 00:30:47,520

here as a

751

00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:52,880

front line or create a new defense line

752

00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:56,080

for their south

753

00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:57,279

so like here and then this is the way

754

00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:59,679

juan's map so

755

00:30:57,279 --> 00:31:00,880

this is the hotel area this is the

756

00:30:59,679 --> 00:31:04,880

yellow river

757

00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:07,840

and then you can see a new created

758

00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:07,840

world-like structure

759

00:31:11,679 --> 00:31:15,840

wang chong was known as a one of pioneer

760

00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:17,679

world builder before the active world

761

00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:19,519

building actually started in the late

762

00:31:17,679 --> 00:31:21,519

1540s

763

00:31:19,519 --> 00:31:23,519

while serving as a supreme commander in

764

00:31:21,519 --> 00:31:25,600

three garrisons of shanxi

765

00:31:23,519 --> 00:31:26,559

he proposed and supervised the building

766

00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:29,919

of what he called

767

00:31:26,559 --> 00:31:31,519

trenches and ramparts he proposes a

768

00:31:29,919 --> 00:31:36,399

linear defensive structure

769

00:31:31,519 --> 00:31:38,720

as a necessity for frontier defense

770

00:31:36,399 --> 00:31:40,320

at the same time he was critical to an

771

00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:42,880

earlier world building effort

772

00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:43,919

claiming that those wars were either too

773

00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:47,440

expensive or

774

00:31:43,919 --> 00:31:49,840

too weak instead he suggests that his

775

00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:51,840

trenches and ramparts can serve as an

776

00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:55,200

effective defensive structure without

777

00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:55,200

requiring too much burden

778

00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:01,120

first he reinterprets an excerpt from

779

00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:03,600

the book of changes

780

00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:05,440

to justify the necessity of such

781

00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:08,399

defensive structure

782

00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:10,240

so in the first part the original text

783

00:32:08,399 --> 00:32:11,360

and earlier commentaries focused on

784

00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:14,559

where to build

785

00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:16,159

defense so the focus was the character

786

00:32:14,559 --> 00:32:18,640

sien

787

00:32:16,159 --> 00:32:22,559

interpreted here as difficult places

788

00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:24,240

rocked terrains or strategic places

789

00:32:22,559 --> 00:32:25,840

wong tung's commentaries below

790

00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:28,880

emphasizes that the verb

791

00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:29,919

sha to highlight that natural barriers

792

00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:32,640

themselves are not

793

00:32:29,919 --> 00:32:35,440

enough to serve as a barrier but it

794

00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:37,840

requires human investment of labor

795

00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:42,640

to fortify and complete it into an

796

00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:45,840

effective barrier however

797

00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:48,559

wong chung's criticism

798

00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:50,399

actually reflect the changing function

799

00:32:48,559 --> 00:32:52,480

of a wall

800

00:32:50,399 --> 00:32:54,840

most of the earlier mean walls were made

801

00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:56,000

of earth and clay and needed to be

802

00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:58,480

demolished

803

00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,120

although some sections were recently

804

00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:01,600

repaired

805

00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:05,039

it is still too low and thin to serve as

806

00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:07,760

an effective defensive structure

807

00:33:05,039 --> 00:33:10,720

before one's time wells did not actually

808

00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:12,960

play much role in actual battle

809

00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:14,480

rather than giving an alarm for upcoming

810

00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:16,320

invasion

811

00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:18,480

it is different from what we imagine now

812

00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:20,880

that a large number of soldiers

813

00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:22,799

were arranged on top on top of the wall

814

00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:24,799

and defend against approaching enemies

815

00:33:22,799 --> 00:33:27,120

from the other side

816

00:33:24,799 --> 00:33:29,360

instead in one's time most generals

817

00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:31,440

prefer the strategy called

818

00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:33,519

strategy of waiting until enemies

819

00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:36,960

actually broke into the wall

820

00:33:33,519 --> 00:33:38,960

and scattered to raid and then making an

821

00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:40,480

ambush attack toward a smaller group of

822

00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:42,480

enemies

823

00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:43,840

even though this strategy let enemies

824

00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:46,000

plunder the area

825

00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:47,200

that belonged to the ming this let them

826

00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:50,480

raid first and then

827

00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:52,799

attack strategy actually made sense

828

00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:53,840

since wall was simply too long it would

829

00:33:52,799 --> 00:33:55,919

cost too much

830

00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:57,440

if soldiers stationed and defend the

831

00:33:55,919 --> 00:34:01,600

entire wall section against

832

00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:04,559

enemies even if the mean could afford it

833

00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:06,000

it was not considered effective without

834

00:34:04,559 --> 00:34:09,359

knowledge of when and which

835

00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:12,079

section of the wall would under attack

836

00:34:09,359 --> 00:34:12,960

even if some soldiers defend at war if

837

00:34:12,079 --> 00:34:15,359

uh

838

00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:16,079

the enemies were up to several tens of

839

00:34:15,359 --> 00:34:17,599

thousands

840

00:34:16,079 --> 00:34:20,000

it would be as if the mountain is

841

00:34:17,599 --> 00:34:23,599

collapsing over which even our best

842

00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:23,599

soldiers could not stand against

843

00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:27,679

this strategy actually supports some of

844

00:34:25,679 --> 00:34:30,079

the existing studies argument

845

00:34:27,679 --> 00:34:32,320

that earlier walls and trenches served

846

00:34:30,079 --> 00:34:34,800

more as an economic boundary of state

847

00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:35,839

military farms rather than serving for

848

00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:38,000

defense

849

00:34:35,839 --> 00:34:39,839

i do not elaborate more details here but

850

00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:42,159

the point is that

851

00:34:39,839 --> 00:34:43,200

one's criticism suggests a changed

852

00:34:42,159 --> 00:34:46,000

expectation

853

00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:47,359

that wall has to be sufficiently high

854

00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:50,639

and thick

855

00:34:47,359 --> 00:34:52,960

and if it is if it is trenches

856

00:34:50,639 --> 00:34:54,560

deep and wide enough to serve as an

857

00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:58,000

effective deterrent

858

00:34:54,560 --> 00:35:01,359

when me was under attack one was not the

859

00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:03,599

first person who suggested it

860

00:35:01,359 --> 00:35:04,640

wang cited another failed attempt by

861

00:35:03,599 --> 00:35:08,240

yang eating

862

00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:10,800

small building in 1506

863

00:35:08,240 --> 00:35:11,599

also serving as the supreme commander at

864

00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:15,040

the time

865

00:35:11,599 --> 00:35:16,000

yang proposed to fortify old wall up to

866

00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:18,160

tujjang

867

00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:19,680

which is more than more or less 6.5

868

00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:23,040

meter or 20 feet

869

00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:24,960

in height and thickness and dig old

870

00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:25,680

trenches up to two zhang at the same

871

00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:29,680

time

872

00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:32,320

in depth and width while young mobilized

873

00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:36,720

900 workers

874

00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:39,040

to complete it within four a month

875

00:35:36,720 --> 00:35:39,760

his plan was halted after building only

876

00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:42,240

30 li

877

00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:44,960

which is more or less 10 mile since the

878

00:35:42,240 --> 00:35:46,720

burden was too high

879

00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:48,240

then how can one build an effective

880

00:35:46,720 --> 00:35:50,240

defensive structure

881

00:35:48,240 --> 00:35:52,800

without mobilizing a great number of

882

00:35:50,240 --> 00:35:52,800

workers

883

00:35:53,119 --> 00:35:56,240

in order to save cost one suggested to

884

00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:58,800

dig

885

00:35:56,240 --> 00:36:00,400

trenches and make rampart instead of

886

00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:04,400

constructing solely a wall

887

00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:06,400

as in the young's plan after digging

888

00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:07,520

trenches workers were supposed to use

889

00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:09,440

the same earth

890

00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:10,720

to build a rampart in the immediate

891

00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:13,040

south of the trench

892

00:36:10,720 --> 00:36:15,520

which together would make a barrier of

893

00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:17,680

three zhang in total

894

00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:19,440

one also suggested to build such

895

00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:21,680

structures further south

896

00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:23,760

compared to the earlier walls so this

897

00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:24,640

map can be confusing because it's upside

898

00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:27,520

down

899

00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:29,359

but so this is actually the old wall

900

00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:31,119

located further north

901

00:36:29,359 --> 00:36:32,640

and then you can see wong chung's

902

00:36:31,119 --> 00:36:35,280

trenches and ramparts

903

00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:36,480

were actually closer to the fortress

904

00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:38,960

where soldiers were

905

00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:40,160

stationing so shortening the distance

906

00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:42,960

between the wall and

907

00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:44,640

fortresses one expected that soldiers

908

00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:47,359

quickly arrive the wall when

909

00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:48,800

it is under attack and utilize it in

910

00:36:47,359 --> 00:36:51,599

extra battles

911

00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:53,839

he also supervised military drills by

912

00:36:51,599 --> 00:36:56,640

making soldiers arranged in rampart and

913

00:36:53,839 --> 00:37:00,240

defended using firearms

914

00:36:56,640 --> 00:37:01,359

toward approaching enemies in summary

915

00:37:00,240 --> 00:37:03,280

juan justified

916

00:37:01,359 --> 00:37:05,119

the necessity of constructing a new

917

00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:07,599

defensive structure

918

00:37:05,119 --> 00:37:10,240

at the same time he tries to distinguish

919

00:37:07,599 --> 00:37:12,800

his project from our previous walls

920

00:37:10,240 --> 00:37:14,560

his criticism of earlier walls reframed

921

00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:17,119

his new defensive structure

922

00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:18,400

as a major breakthrough and helped him

923

00:37:17,119 --> 00:37:22,320

avoid the criticism

924

00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:25,359

of possible financial burdens

925

00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:28,320

now i move to weiwan's huang minjib

926

00:37:25,359 --> 00:37:29,520

jovian carl which was published more or

927

00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:33,440

less a decade

928

00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:33,839

later in 1542 in the section of the

929

00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:37,119

world

930

00:37:33,839 --> 00:37:38,560

chang we emphasized world building as

931

00:37:37,119 --> 00:37:41,680

the most urgent task

932

00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:43,599

for northern frontier defense

933

00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:44,720

we actually copied and edited wang

934

00:37:43,599 --> 00:37:47,599

chung's beluge

935

00:37:44,720 --> 00:37:48,800

shuji in the first half of his section

936

00:37:47,599 --> 00:37:50,960

however

937

00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:52,400

we discarded wang chung's criticism

938

00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:54,800

against earlier walls

939

00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:58,000

instead created a new historical

940

00:37:54,800 --> 00:38:00,400

narrative of the mean great wall

941

00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:02,160

way opens this section by emphasizing

942

00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:06,160

essential differences between

943

00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:08,640

hua or ethnic han and norden who

944

00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:10,560

according to him world building policy

945

00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:11,440

is inferred from the fundamental

946

00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:14,720

difference

947

00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:16,960

between their lifestyles

948

00:38:14,720 --> 00:38:18,000

snowden who barbarians have strong

949

00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:20,800

coverage forces

950

00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:22,640

due to their nomadic lifestyle while

951

00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:25,119

chinese dynasties lack such

952

00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:27,920

advantages due to sedentary and

953

00:38:25,119 --> 00:38:30,640

agriculture oriented lifestyle

954

00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:32,320

this distinction itself is not new and

955

00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:34,240

actually frequently mentioned in song

956

00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:36,720

dynasty writings

957

00:38:34,240 --> 00:38:38,880

however we argue that this difference

958

00:38:36,720 --> 00:38:41,200

led to the strategic problem

959

00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:42,400

that step enemies could easily be

960

00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:44,160

gathered and strong

961

00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:45,520

while our soldiers were difficult

962

00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:49,599

together because

963

00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:52,880

it is it costs too much and still weak

964

00:38:49,599 --> 00:38:55,440

way concludes that what is the best

965

00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:58,240

solution to solve this problem

966

00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:58,800

since it could block enemies without a

967

00:38:58,240 --> 00:39:01,920

large

968

00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:04,560

number of stationing soldiers this

969

00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:04,960

essentialist attitude actually differs

970

00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:07,520

from

971

00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:08,320

wang chung who himself grew up in taiwan

972

00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:11,200

one of the

973

00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:12,240

borders town in shanxi and often

974

00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:15,119

positioned himself

975

00:39:12,240 --> 00:39:17,200

as one of frontier's men to highlight

976

00:39:15,119 --> 00:39:21,440

his

977

00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:21,440

expertise in frontier affairs

978

00:39:22,079 --> 00:39:26,079

rather than essentializing ethnocultural

979

00:39:24,240 --> 00:39:27,920

differences

980

00:39:26,079 --> 00:39:29,520

wong chung was keenly aware of the

981

00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:31,760

porosity of boundaries

982

00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:33,920

and actively utilized it to obtain

983

00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:35,760

information from local informants and

984

00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:38,000

returnees from the other side of the

985

00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:38,000

wall

986

00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:42,240

where is another major difference from

987

00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:44,640

wang chung

988

00:39:42,240 --> 00:39:45,359

is that instead of criticizing earlier

989

00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:48,320

walls

990

00:39:45,359 --> 00:39:50,320

wade described as if the mean great wall

991

00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:53,520

was in the gradual evolution

992

00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:55,760

since 1472.

993

00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:58,079

wang zhong described with details the

994

00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:59,760

vicissitudes of old walls

995

00:39:58,079 --> 00:40:01,119

each of their characteristics and

996

00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:04,480

weaknesses

997

00:40:01,119 --> 00:40:07,040

such details were all erased and instead

998

00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:10,160

weihan just briefly summarized them into

999

00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:12,480

a series of wall construction

1000

00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:15,200

for instance yanichin's failure was not

1001

00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:15,200

even mentioned

1002

00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:23,119

instead his wall plan which was a actual

1003

00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:24,079

failure as we saw briefly was described

1004

00:40:23,119 --> 00:40:26,560

as a successful

1005

00:40:24,079 --> 00:40:29,040

story in upgrading and completing the

1006

00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:32,160

auto defense system

1007

00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:34,079

such narrative created an illusion as if

1008

00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:35,839

the mean continued to be involved with

1009

00:40:34,079 --> 00:40:38,240

wall construction

1010

00:40:35,839 --> 00:40:38,960

and as a result wall was gradually

1011

00:40:38,240 --> 00:40:41,280

extended

1012

00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:45,440

and evolved into a comprehensive

1013

00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:45,440

defensive system in northern frontier

1014

00:40:45,839 --> 00:40:49,280

differences in their materiality and

1015

00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:51,520

building techniques

1016

00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:53,680

were translated as the adaptation to

1017

00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:58,160

local conditions

1018

00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:59,920

which is in chinese indie ge to eat

1019

00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:01,839

however rather than showing their

1020

00:40:59,920 --> 00:41:04,800

differences the wall

1021

00:41:01,839 --> 00:41:06,960

served as a homogenizing term

1022

00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:08,160

incorporating various kinds of previous

1023

00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:11,440

structures

1024

00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:14,640

which used to have a variety of local uh

1025

00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:15,040

social functions and transforming them

1026

00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:17,839

as

1027

00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:20,000

all being a part of the bin were a

1028

00:41:17,839 --> 00:41:21,920

defensive boundary

1029

00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:23,440

this is what i call a new grand

1030

00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:26,640

narrative of the great wall

1031

00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:27,920

as in the title of today's talk at the

1032

00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:29,839

end of this history

1033

00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:31,839

we suddenly switched to the recent

1034

00:41:29,839 --> 00:41:34,319

building of wall in datum

1035

00:41:31,839 --> 00:41:34,960

though i didn't include in this table

1036

00:41:34,319 --> 00:41:38,400

because

1037

00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:40,640

the space is quite limited

1038

00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:42,400

this indicates ways intention to claim

1039

00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:44,720

that walls in hotel

1040

00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:46,640

as a collective sum already proved that

1041

00:41:44,720 --> 00:41:49,599

world building is the best strategy

1042

00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:51,839

to deal with northern enemies and the

1043

00:41:49,599 --> 00:41:54,079

same strategy must be implemented

1044

00:41:51,839 --> 00:41:56,880

in other parts of northern frontiers

1045

00:41:54,079 --> 00:41:59,040

such as shampoo and datum garrisons

1046

00:41:56,880 --> 00:42:01,680

which were more approximate to the

1047

00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:03,920

capital beijing

1048

00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:06,000

considering the context that it was

1049

00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:08,640

under a recent attack and world building

1050

00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:11,760

was discussed as a policy option

1051

00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:12,160

we actually have a very specific agenda

1052

00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:16,480

to

1053

00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:20,319

extend the wall into the north northeast

1054

00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:23,359

section in summary

1055

00:42:20,319 --> 00:42:25,119

during the 16th century several scholar

1056

00:42:23,359 --> 00:42:27,200

officers challenged the existing

1057

00:42:25,119 --> 00:42:29,839

negative connotations

1058

00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:31,599

associated with the ancient great wall

1059

00:42:29,839 --> 00:42:34,000

as we see in the legend of lady

1060

00:42:31,599 --> 00:42:36,400

mongzhang

1061

00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:38,079

in order to justify the construction of

1062

00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:41,440

a new defense structure

1063

00:42:38,079 --> 00:42:43,520

in northern frontiers

1064

00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:45,760

before this period wall and other

1065

00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:47,440

boundary markers having various forms

1066

00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:50,160

and different social functions

1067

00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:50,960

were treated more or less as a local

1068

00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:54,480

practice

1069

00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:55,920

and had a preliminary or fragmentary

1070

00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:59,280

presence in the archive

1071

00:42:55,920 --> 00:43:02,400

or in a historical narrative

1072

00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:04,800

wong chung describes what wall has to be

1073

00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:06,079

and what it has to look like but he

1074

00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:08,800

still compares

1075

00:43:06,079 --> 00:43:10,000

various different materials strengths

1076

00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:13,359

and weaknesses

1077

00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:13,839

and required costs among them in order

1078

00:43:13,359 --> 00:43:15,760

to

1079

00:43:13,839 --> 00:43:19,200

reject the existing notion that long

1080

00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:21,599

wall is bad because it costs too much

1081

00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:22,640

in contrast wake creates a linear

1082

00:43:21,599 --> 00:43:26,240

evolutionary

1083

00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:28,319

and unifying narrative of the great wall

1084

00:43:26,240 --> 00:43:29,280

he collected scattered records and

1085

00:43:28,319 --> 00:43:31,040

examples

1086

00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:32,480

and rearranged them according to the

1087

00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:35,599

chronology

1088

00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:38,839

and he he reproduces them

1089

00:43:35,599 --> 00:43:40,400

as a part of a singular defensive

1090

00:43:38,839 --> 00:43:44,240

structure

1091

00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:45,839

so in my opinion weihuan's narrative

1092

00:43:44,240 --> 00:43:48,160

shares similarities with our

1093

00:43:45,839 --> 00:43:50,160

modern imagination of the great wall in

1094

00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:52,079

two aspects

1095

00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:53,520

one is the notion that the wall

1096

00:43:52,079 --> 00:43:56,079

represents a

1097

00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:58,319

absolute boundary between two societies

1098

00:43:56,079 --> 00:44:00,079

they're economically ecologically

1099

00:43:58,319 --> 00:44:01,839

ethnoculturally different from each

1100

00:44:00,079 --> 00:44:04,319

other

1101

00:44:01,839 --> 00:44:05,280

the other is any differences in terms of

1102

00:44:04,319 --> 00:44:07,760

materiality

1103

00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:10,640

and social functions were ignored in the

1104

00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:12,720

excuse of local adaptations

1105

00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:15,359

while the notion that the wall as a

1106

00:44:12,720 --> 00:44:16,160

single continuous existing and evolving

1107

00:44:15,359 --> 00:44:19,359

structure

1108

00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:20,160

remain intact this is the end of my

1109

00:44:19,359 --> 00:44:23,839

presentation

1110

00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:23,839

thank you so much

1111

00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:30,560

thank you so much we appreciate your

1112

00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:33,440

presentation

1113

00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:34,400

thank you and three very different but

1114

00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:36,400

equally

1115

00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:37,839

engaging presentations and the floor is

1116

00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:39,839

now open we

1117

00:44:37,839 --> 00:44:41,520

do have a few questions in our queue

1118

00:44:39,839 --> 00:44:43,839

already and i'm going to

1119

00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:45,200

our first question is from lena nia and

1120

00:44:43,839 --> 00:44:48,400

i'm going to see if i can

1121

00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:51,119

allow her to ask her question

1122

00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:52,400

herself let's see if we can bring her in

1123

00:44:51,119 --> 00:44:53,280

lina do you want to go ahead and ask

1124

00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:55,680

your question

1125

00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:57,280

uh sure thank you thank you for having

1126

00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:59,839

me in today's a wonderful

1127

00:44:57,280 --> 00:45:01,520

sharing session so i have a question uh

1128

00:44:59,839 --> 00:45:04,960

for professor fonglong

1129

00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:06,160

so i wonder so from the song um period

1130

00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:08,800

to the mean

1131

00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:09,440

i wonder was there any like significant

1132

00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:12,960

changes

1133

00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:14,800

in terms of what kind of uh goods

1134

00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:16,720

and what kind of currency that japan

1135

00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:19,520

wanted from china and how

1136

00:45:16,720 --> 00:45:21,599

and if there are such changes then how

1137

00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:24,480

does it enrich our understanding of

1138

00:45:21,599 --> 00:45:25,520

economic history during this transition

1139

00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:30,480

period

1140

00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:30,480

thank you it might be a too big question

1141

00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:35,280

well thank you alina for that uh

1142

00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:37,920

question uh yeah there is a very

1143

00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:38,480

significant change the first real big

1144

00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:40,960

boom

1145

00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:42,880

of sino-japanese trade begins in the

1146

00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:46,240

late 12th century

1147

00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:50,319

and it's really organized around the

1148

00:45:46,240 --> 00:45:54,240

export of chinese bronze coins

1149

00:45:50,319 --> 00:45:56,880

to japan at a time in which japan

1150

00:45:54,240 --> 00:45:58,640

no longer was producing any currency of

1151

00:45:56,880 --> 00:46:02,079

its own

1152

00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:04,400

and this has enormous implications for

1153

00:46:02,079 --> 00:46:07,920

japan it really sets off

1154

00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:10,960

a commercial revolution in japan

1155

00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:13,119

and things like

1156

00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:14,160

land rents and tax revenues are much

1157

00:46:13,119 --> 00:46:16,960

more monetized

1158

00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:17,839

as a result in the next few centuries in

1159

00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:20,880

japan than they

1160

00:46:17,839 --> 00:46:25,520

are in china down

1161

00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:28,880

to the period that i was talking about

1162

00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:32,480

japan was wholly reliant on imports

1163

00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:36,079

of chinese made coin

1164

00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:36,079

as their currency

1165

00:46:36,240 --> 00:46:41,119

the and among the things that the

1166

00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:42,000

chinese were most interested in getting

1167

00:46:41,119 --> 00:46:45,119

from the japanese

1168

00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:47,680

at that point in time was sulfur for

1169

00:46:45,119 --> 00:46:49,200

gunpowder weapons which were very

1170

00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:52,880

extensively used

1171

00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:56,400

as andrade's research

1172

00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:59,119

now shows us in the song period as well

1173

00:46:56,400 --> 00:47:01,040

not for guns in our conventional sense

1174

00:46:59,119 --> 00:47:02,240

but for explosives what we might call

1175

00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:05,520

hand grenades

1176

00:47:02,240 --> 00:47:06,400

uh and also for projectiles as we'll

1177

00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:10,240

call huayjin

1178

00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:14,319

or fire arrows that were projected

1179

00:47:10,240 --> 00:47:17,359

using using

1180

00:47:14,319 --> 00:47:18,480

gunpowder both sort of arrows and lances

1181

00:47:17,359 --> 00:47:20,720

even

1182

00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:23,040

that was the main thing that the chinese

1183

00:47:20,720 --> 00:47:25,520

were interested in

1184

00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:26,960

but this trade undergoes significant

1185

00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:29,520

transformation

1186

00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:31,440

already in the 15th century because the

1187

00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:34,480

ming dynasty

1188

00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:35,200

after its failed experiment with paper

1189

00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:38,359

money

1190

00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:40,000

uh also suspends its coinage after the

1191

00:47:38,359 --> 00:47:44,559

1530s and down

1192

00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:46,400

until i'm sorry after the 1430s and down

1193

00:47:44,559 --> 00:47:49,119

to the 1530s

1194

00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:51,359

the main government is not minting any

1195

00:47:49,119 --> 00:47:54,640

coin whatsoever

1196

00:47:51,359 --> 00:47:57,760

lots of private coiners step in to

1197

00:47:54,640 --> 00:48:01,680

replace the official coin with their own

1198

00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:03,520

uh rather substandard but the market

1199

00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:05,599

didn't have much choice and so they

1200

00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:06,480

begin to use these private coins and

1201

00:48:05,599 --> 00:48:09,280

that

1202

00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:10,880

flows into japan as well the japanese

1203

00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:14,240

aren't very happy

1204

00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:17,119

about the now substandard coin that they

1205

00:48:14,240 --> 00:48:17,119

are receiving

1206

00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:22,720

so what happens by the 16th century

1207

00:48:20,319 --> 00:48:24,480

is that imports of chinese coin really

1208

00:48:22,720 --> 00:48:28,319

diminish

1209

00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:31,680

but the export of silver

1210

00:48:28,319 --> 00:48:33,599

is in exchange for imports of chinese

1211

00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:36,640

silks

1212

00:48:33,599 --> 00:48:40,400

and the japanese silk manufacturer

1213

00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:44,079

really takes off in the 16th century

1214

00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:47,920

using chinese either cloth or

1215

00:48:44,079 --> 00:48:51,040

yarn but of course cut and

1216

00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:55,200

died for japanese

1217

00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:58,559

clothing styles but overwhelmingly

1218

00:48:55,200 --> 00:49:02,240

the exchange of

1219

00:48:58,559 --> 00:49:04,720

silver from japan is for chinese silks

1220

00:49:02,240 --> 00:49:06,079

so we have this reversal in the flow of

1221

00:49:04,720 --> 00:49:09,040

monetary metals

1222

00:49:06,079 --> 00:49:11,040

from the 12th century down to the end of

1223

00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:14,559

the 15th century it's

1224

00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:18,240

the monetary metal bronze coins is going

1225

00:49:14,559 --> 00:49:19,520

from china to japan and then in from the

1226

00:49:18,240 --> 00:49:22,800

16th century and

1227

00:49:19,520 --> 00:49:25,839

until the end of the 17th century

1228

00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:28,960

it is the japanese silver

1229

00:49:25,839 --> 00:49:32,319

that is coming into

1230

00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:35,520

into china uh and the japanese silver

1231

00:49:32,319 --> 00:49:36,480

is still much more quantitatively much

1232

00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:39,599

more significant

1233

00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:42,400

than than the american silver

1234

00:49:39,599 --> 00:49:44,000

uh in well into the 17th century so

1235

00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:48,400

that's what's really fueling the

1236

00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:48,400

commercial boom of the late ming period

1237

00:49:50,559 --> 00:49:55,200

they say thank you so they are in a like

1238

00:49:52,559 --> 00:49:56,839

a mutual beneficial relationship in

1239

00:49:55,200 --> 00:50:00,079

different time periods

1240

00:49:56,839 --> 00:50:02,800

right uh well as good ricardian trade

1241

00:50:00,079 --> 00:50:06,960

theory would tell us uh yes

1242

00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:08,800

benefit thank you thank you professor

1243

00:50:06,960 --> 00:50:10,240

thank you as we're uh awaiting

1244

00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:11,680

additional questions please

1245

00:50:10,240 --> 00:50:13,680

indicate you want to ask a question in

1246

00:50:11,680 --> 00:50:14,240

the q a slot if you have anything but i

1247

00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:17,119

will

1248

00:50:14,240 --> 00:50:18,400

jump in with a question to fill the void

1249

00:50:17,119 --> 00:50:20,559

so to speak

1250

00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:21,920

and one question for everyone that i

1251

00:50:20,559 --> 00:50:23,200

think might be useful for some of our

1252

00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:25,119

graduate students who are

1253

00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:27,359

in the meeting is if you could talk a

1254

00:50:25,119 --> 00:50:29,440

little bit about the methodology

1255

00:50:27,359 --> 00:50:31,680

that you used in terms of the current

1256

00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:33,680

project you presented today how did you

1257

00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:35,599

discover the project what materials are

1258

00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:36,960

you using i know helen mentioned

1259

00:50:35,599 --> 00:50:38,960

she was writing a book and then it kind

1260

00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:42,000

of morphed into this film and

1261

00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:43,119

how did that shift uh maybe and how did

1262

00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:45,839

working on the film

1263

00:50:43,119 --> 00:50:47,119

later inform the current book project

1264

00:50:45,839 --> 00:50:49,839

and maybe even bring a different

1265

00:50:47,119 --> 00:50:50,559

sensibility of narrative of storytelling

1266

00:50:49,839 --> 00:50:52,640

of

1267

00:50:50,559 --> 00:50:54,960

uh how did that impact the monograph

1268

00:50:52,640 --> 00:50:56,480

you're working on

1269

00:50:54,960 --> 00:50:58,319

if everybody could just share a little

1270

00:50:56,480 --> 00:50:59,839

bit about the kind of process

1271

00:50:58,319 --> 00:51:02,480

of your research project you talked

1272

00:50:59,839 --> 00:51:02,480

about thank you

1273

00:51:04,559 --> 00:51:07,680

would you like us to go in the order of

1274

00:51:06,720 --> 00:51:11,040

presentations

1275

00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:14,960

sure that would be great thank you okay

1276

00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:18,079

well this is a an extension

1277

00:51:14,960 --> 00:51:19,920

of work i was doing in chinese monetary

1278

00:51:18,079 --> 00:51:22,400

history which i think is sort of

1279

00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:23,680

my home base in terms of research and

1280

00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:26,079

worked on for

1281

00:51:23,680 --> 00:51:29,599

for many years michael made mention of

1282

00:51:26,079 --> 00:51:33,440

my 1996 book the fountain of fortune

1283

00:51:29,599 --> 00:51:34,079

um which looks at the chinese monetary

1284

00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:36,400

system

1285

00:51:34,079 --> 00:51:38,319

during this period from song to end of

1286

00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:42,319

ming

1287

00:51:38,319 --> 00:51:45,599

and as an economic historian

1288

00:51:42,319 --> 00:51:47,760

i simply followed the money and that

1289

00:51:45,599 --> 00:51:50,800

took me to japan as i said

1290

00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:51,760

the the big story from the 12th century

1291

00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:54,800

onward

1292

00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:58,240

in east asian trade is the export

1293

00:51:54,800 --> 00:52:01,359

of chinese bronze currency to

1294

00:51:58,240 --> 00:52:04,800

japan once i got to japan

1295

00:52:01,359 --> 00:52:08,160

i discovered that the japanese sources

1296

00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:12,240

were far richer for

1297

00:52:08,160 --> 00:52:14,960

studying things like actual monetary use

1298

00:52:12,240 --> 00:52:16,800

and regional differences what kinds of

1299

00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:19,839

coins are being used

1300

00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:22,720

where and by whom different levels of of

1301

00:52:19,839 --> 00:52:25,920

the economy and and so forth

1302

00:52:22,720 --> 00:52:28,079

so then i wound up uh really looking

1303

00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:29,040

at the way in which chinese coins were

1304

00:52:28,079 --> 00:52:33,119

used

1305

00:52:29,040 --> 00:52:33,520

uh in the uh in the japanese context

1306

00:52:33,119 --> 00:52:35,359

again

1307

00:52:33,520 --> 00:52:36,720

the sources for japan were just much

1308

00:52:35,359 --> 00:52:39,680

richer uh

1309

00:52:36,720 --> 00:52:41,200

on these issues than the chinese sources

1310

00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:44,839

were

1311

00:52:41,200 --> 00:52:47,839

and that then kind of extended into

1312

00:52:44,839 --> 00:52:51,200

a a general interest

1313

00:52:47,839 --> 00:52:56,800

in maritime exchange

1314

00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:59,680

for perhaps two decades now

1315

00:52:56,800 --> 00:53:00,880

there's been a big boom in studying

1316

00:52:59,680 --> 00:53:03,440

japan

1317

00:53:00,880 --> 00:53:05,599

in an east asian perspective and a

1318

00:53:03,440 --> 00:53:07,920

maritime perspective

1319

00:53:05,599 --> 00:53:10,319

in japan itself it hasn't quite

1320

00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:12,880

translated into

1321

00:53:10,319 --> 00:53:14,160

western scholarship on japan but this is

1322

00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:17,680

a really hot topic

1323

00:53:14,160 --> 00:53:19,680

in japan and so uh there's enormous

1324

00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:22,160

amount of research that's been

1325

00:53:19,680 --> 00:53:24,160

being done and has been done now by

1326

00:53:22,160 --> 00:53:26,960

japanese scholars who

1327

00:53:24,160 --> 00:53:29,760

uh in contrast to the traditional very

1328

00:53:26,960 --> 00:53:32,640

sort of insular literally insular

1329

00:53:29,760 --> 00:53:33,680

perspective on japan as a unique and

1330

00:53:32,640 --> 00:53:37,359

separate world

1331

00:53:33,680 --> 00:53:39,680

are really looking at the

1332

00:53:37,359 --> 00:53:40,800

exchanges with the rest of east asia and

1333

00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:42,880

even beyond

1334

00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:43,920

and so i've been collaborating with

1335

00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:47,359

these scholars

1336

00:53:43,920 --> 00:53:49,839

in in uh in in this kind of research

1337

00:53:47,359 --> 00:53:53,920

some of the images that i showed today

1338

00:53:49,839 --> 00:53:55,920

come out of the the co-research

1339

00:53:53,920 --> 00:53:58,400

that i've been doing with with japanese

1340

00:53:55,920 --> 00:53:58,400

scholars

1341

00:54:01,520 --> 00:54:07,520

for methodology i think i focus on

1342

00:54:04,880 --> 00:54:08,400

both textual analysis and visual

1343

00:54:07,520 --> 00:54:12,000

analysis

1344

00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:15,119

so try to make sense that

1345

00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:18,800

map is not just illustrating what was

1346

00:54:15,119 --> 00:54:20,640

written or what we think but it also has

1347

00:54:18,800 --> 00:54:21,599

like an independent like a performative

1348

00:54:20,640 --> 00:54:25,839

function

1349

00:54:21,599 --> 00:54:28,720

in uh shaping the reality so yeah that's

1350

00:54:25,839 --> 00:54:29,839

what i thought about methodology

1351

00:54:28,720 --> 00:54:33,520

currently

1352

00:54:29,839 --> 00:54:35,200

yeah um and since professor barry said i

1353

00:54:33,520 --> 00:54:38,400

am the next person for

1354

00:54:35,200 --> 00:54:41,440

asking questions i would just go ahead

1355

00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:42,319

i have two questions for professor von

1356

00:54:41,440 --> 00:54:45,920

glund's

1357

00:54:42,319 --> 00:54:48,319

presentation first is very specific

1358

00:54:45,920 --> 00:54:51,359

question related to my own research

1359

00:54:48,319 --> 00:54:54,400

that about the use of firearms

1360

00:54:51,359 --> 00:54:56,880

because in the sources i used

1361

00:54:54,400 --> 00:54:57,920

they also frequently mentioned about the

1362

00:54:56,880 --> 00:55:00,559

existing

1363

00:54:57,920 --> 00:55:01,359

guns they were using or they call it

1364

00:55:00,559 --> 00:55:05,920

chiang chang

1365

00:55:01,359 --> 00:55:09,359

like a question um and then following ji

1366

00:55:05,920 --> 00:55:12,240

chang so i was wondering if

1367

00:55:09,359 --> 00:55:13,839

you are familiar with any existing

1368

00:55:12,240 --> 00:55:16,799

research about how

1369

00:55:13,839 --> 00:55:17,760

the portuguese guns were imported and

1370

00:55:16,799 --> 00:55:20,079

circulated

1371

00:55:17,760 --> 00:55:21,200

even across the different borders at

1372

00:55:20,079 --> 00:55:25,680

that time

1373

00:55:21,200 --> 00:55:29,599

and how the society was

1374

00:55:25,680 --> 00:55:31,920

kind of grasping and understanding the

1375

00:55:29,599 --> 00:55:33,119

knowledge of making it or is it just

1376

00:55:31,920 --> 00:55:36,319

purely

1377

00:55:33,119 --> 00:55:36,799

relied on the import of the portuguese

1378

00:55:36,319 --> 00:55:40,319

guns

1379

00:55:36,799 --> 00:55:43,920

that's my first question the second one

1380

00:55:40,319 --> 00:55:46,240

is that i was wondering how your

1381

00:55:43,920 --> 00:55:47,599

i guess maybe it's a new concept of

1382

00:55:46,240 --> 00:55:50,880

public

1383

00:55:47,599 --> 00:55:53,920

politics how it is similar

1384

00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:56,400

or different from the

1385

00:55:53,920 --> 00:55:57,839

kind of earlier period maritime

1386

00:55:56,400 --> 00:56:00,160

connections

1387

00:55:57,839 --> 00:56:02,720

and also during pretty much the

1388

00:56:00,160 --> 00:56:06,000

contemporaneous period of european

1389

00:56:02,720 --> 00:56:08,960

uh kind of it's not yet

1390

00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:09,599

colonialism but like a kind of maritime

1391

00:56:08,960 --> 00:56:12,240

network

1392

00:56:09,599 --> 00:56:13,359

so how you frame this case in the

1393

00:56:12,240 --> 00:56:15,680

context

1394

00:56:13,359 --> 00:56:18,960

uh temporal context and special context

1395

00:56:15,680 --> 00:56:22,160

in the of the bigger frame

1396

00:56:18,960 --> 00:56:23,599

i hope that makes sense yeah yes thank

1397

00:56:22,160 --> 00:56:26,240

you thank you

1398

00:56:23,599 --> 00:56:26,799

first of all on the weapons of course

1399

00:56:26,240 --> 00:56:30,720

tonio

1400

00:56:26,799 --> 00:56:35,359

andrade's work and his recent book

1401

00:56:30,720 --> 00:56:38,400

uh on this is a key uh source

1402

00:56:35,359 --> 00:56:39,839

the portuguese as i

1403

00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:42,400

was saying that you know gunpowder

1404

00:56:39,839 --> 00:56:45,599

weapons go well back

1405

00:56:42,400 --> 00:56:48,640

into uh at least

1406

00:56:45,599 --> 00:56:51,839

the song period and

1407

00:56:48,640 --> 00:56:55,280

the extent to which the chinese

1408

00:56:51,839 --> 00:56:57,040

were using uh gunpowder weapons or or

1409

00:56:55,280 --> 00:56:58,079

having them used against them as it

1410

00:56:57,040 --> 00:57:01,359

often was the case

1411

00:56:58,079 --> 00:57:04,000

in the song and mongol period uh

1412

00:57:01,359 --> 00:57:05,839

has been overlooked but they again given

1413

00:57:04,000 --> 00:57:07,760

the massive quantities of sulfur that

1414

00:57:05,839 --> 00:57:09,760

were being imported from japan

1415

00:57:07,760 --> 00:57:11,119

in the 12th 13th centuries because of

1416

00:57:09,760 --> 00:57:14,799

some sense of the

1417

00:57:11,119 --> 00:57:17,599

of the scale uh of how

1418

00:57:14,799 --> 00:57:18,720

important gunpowder weapons were the

1419

00:57:17,599 --> 00:57:22,559

portuguese of course

1420

00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:24,160

introduce a new technology but everybody

1421

00:57:22,559 --> 00:57:26,000

complains that there aren't enough

1422

00:57:24,160 --> 00:57:29,119

portuguese guns

1423

00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:30,880

and so one of the big competitions in

1424

00:57:29,119 --> 00:57:32,799

kyushu certainly is

1425

00:57:30,880 --> 00:57:34,640

uh everyone's trying to develop

1426

00:57:32,799 --> 00:57:36,720

relations with the portuguese and trying

1427

00:57:34,640 --> 00:57:37,359

to develop exclusive relations so that

1428

00:57:36,720 --> 00:57:39,839

they

1429

00:57:37,359 --> 00:57:41,599

and not their rivals have access to the

1430

00:57:39,839 --> 00:57:46,079

portuguese guns

1431

00:57:41,599 --> 00:57:47,520

um i there is a long-standing narrative

1432

00:57:46,079 --> 00:57:50,559

it's that the portuguese

1433

00:57:47,520 --> 00:57:52,240

introduced gunpowder weapons to japan i

1434

00:57:50,559 --> 00:57:54,880

think it's actually the waco who

1435

00:57:52,240 --> 00:57:57,280

introduced portuguese weapons rather

1436

00:57:54,880 --> 00:57:58,880

than the portuguese themselves being the

1437

00:57:57,280 --> 00:58:01,839

the people who are carrying these

1438

00:57:58,880 --> 00:58:05,599

weapons to japan

1439

00:58:01,839 --> 00:58:09,040

the ming walco wars are very much

1440

00:58:05,599 --> 00:58:12,960

a story of gunpowder weaponry and

1441

00:58:09,040 --> 00:58:16,559

indeed the successes in

1442

00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:20,559

the late 1550s 60s uh in fujian

1443

00:58:16,559 --> 00:58:23,119

for the last last stage of the waka wars

1444

00:58:20,559 --> 00:58:25,680

which were supervised on the chinese

1445

00:58:23,119 --> 00:58:28,799

side by the famous general t.j guang

1446

00:58:25,680 --> 00:58:29,520

uh he himself as andrade points out was

1447

00:58:28,799 --> 00:58:32,079

an important

1448

00:58:29,520 --> 00:58:34,319

innovator so what's happening is that

1449

00:58:32,079 --> 00:58:35,280

the chinese and then the japanese as

1450

00:58:34,319 --> 00:58:38,720

well

1451

00:58:35,280 --> 00:58:40,720

are taking the new technologies

1452

00:58:38,720 --> 00:58:42,960

that are introduced by the portuguese

1453

00:58:40,720 --> 00:58:46,079

and reverse engineering them

1454

00:58:42,960 --> 00:58:49,359

to make their own copies of them

1455

00:58:46,079 --> 00:58:50,640

and and some place some cases their own

1456

00:58:49,359 --> 00:58:53,920

variations

1457

00:58:50,640 --> 00:58:56,799

of them so it's really not a question of

1458

00:58:53,920 --> 00:58:58,160

portuguese guns so much as the basic

1459

00:58:56,799 --> 00:59:01,760

technology

1460

00:58:58,160 --> 00:59:04,240

that is absorbed very quickly on

1461

00:59:01,760 --> 00:59:06,319

all sides the ming the waco and the

1462

00:59:04,240 --> 00:59:09,359

japanese the various

1463

00:59:06,319 --> 00:59:12,640

contending powers in in japan

1464

00:59:09,359 --> 00:59:15,680

itself that is really

1465

00:59:12,640 --> 00:59:17,440

producing these weapons now but

1466

00:59:15,680 --> 00:59:19,359

you know using portuguese models but

1467

00:59:17,440 --> 00:59:23,200

very much making them

1468

00:59:19,359 --> 00:59:25,359

locally on the second question of

1469

00:59:23,200 --> 00:59:26,880

the port polity and its possible

1470

00:59:25,359 --> 00:59:29,760

precedence

1471

00:59:26,880 --> 00:59:30,720

i'm not sure that there are of course

1472

00:59:29,760 --> 00:59:32,720

there are

1473

00:59:30,720 --> 00:59:34,079

we might call city-states especially in

1474

00:59:32,720 --> 00:59:37,200

southeast asia

1475

00:59:34,079 --> 00:59:39,150

at an early point in time

1476

00:59:37,200 --> 00:59:41,200

and i i guess i don't know enough to

1477

00:59:39,150 --> 00:59:43,200

[Music]

1478

00:59:41,200 --> 00:59:44,880

claim whether or not they might have

1479

00:59:43,200 --> 00:59:47,119

been port polity certainly when we get

1480

00:59:44,880 --> 00:59:50,319

into the 18th century this is a

1481

00:59:47,119 --> 00:59:53,680

a very strong phenomenon throughout

1482

00:59:50,319 --> 00:59:56,079

maritime southeast asia both indigenous

1483

00:59:53,680 --> 00:59:58,319

and as i said in some cases chinese

1484

00:59:56,079 --> 01:00:01,359

governed port polities that are ringing

1485

00:59:58,319 --> 01:00:05,119

the the oceans of southeast asia

1486

01:00:01,359 --> 01:00:08,319

in the 18th century um but i think as a

1487

01:00:05,119 --> 01:00:11,040

kind of conscious strategy of political

1488

01:00:08,319 --> 01:00:14,240

economy this is something that's new

1489

01:00:11,040 --> 01:00:16,000

in the 15th 16th centuries again i would

1490

01:00:14,240 --> 01:00:19,520

say that the prototype is really

1491

01:00:16,000 --> 01:00:22,480

uq uh which had the

1492

01:00:19,520 --> 01:00:23,359

advantage of since there was a ban on

1493

01:00:22,480 --> 01:00:26,640

trade

1494

01:00:23,359 --> 01:00:29,839

uh on overseas trying by the uh

1495

01:00:26,640 --> 01:00:32,559

by the chinese but uq had

1496

01:00:29,839 --> 01:00:33,680

a very active trading relations uh with

1497

01:00:32,559 --> 01:00:36,640

the ming

1498

01:00:33,680 --> 01:00:38,799

and many japanese partners again that

1499

01:00:36,640 --> 01:00:41,599

they

1500

01:00:38,799 --> 01:00:43,280

varied among the whoever was the leading

1501

01:00:41,599 --> 01:00:46,319

contending power in japan

1502

01:00:43,280 --> 01:00:49,599

going back to the 15th century

1503

01:00:46,319 --> 01:00:52,079

so ryukyu became the linchpin

1504

01:00:49,599 --> 01:00:54,480

of maritime trade in the 15th century

1505

01:00:52,079 --> 01:00:57,680

because it was the one place

1506

01:00:54,480 --> 01:01:00,240

that could trade with everyone uh and

1507

01:00:57,680 --> 01:01:00,960

so the chinese and japanese they were i

1508

01:01:00,240 --> 01:01:03,440

pointed out

1509

01:01:00,960 --> 01:01:04,559

the another phenomenon that we see with

1510

01:01:03,440 --> 01:01:07,839

this port polity

1511

01:01:04,559 --> 01:01:10,799

is the uh overseas merchant

1512

01:01:07,839 --> 01:01:12,880

colonies as i showed in hoi on a city

1513

01:01:10,799 --> 01:01:13,920

that was entirely populated by chinese

1514

01:01:12,880 --> 01:01:15,839

and japanese

1515

01:01:13,920 --> 01:01:18,000

the portuguese and dutch weren't allowed

1516

01:01:15,839 --> 01:01:20,000

in

1517

01:01:18,000 --> 01:01:21,520

the the chinese and japanese kept them

1518

01:01:20,000 --> 01:01:23,280

out

1519

01:01:21,520 --> 01:01:25,119

and this is something that's happening

1520

01:01:23,280 --> 01:01:28,160

in naha the the capital

1521

01:01:25,119 --> 01:01:31,599

of the uq kingdom

1522

01:01:28,160 --> 01:01:34,079

where uh you have uh

1523

01:01:31,599 --> 01:01:35,440

these side-by-side chinese and japanese

1524

01:01:34,079 --> 01:01:37,839

merchant communities

1525

01:01:35,440 --> 01:01:39,200

the uq have to sort of keep them apart

1526

01:01:37,839 --> 01:01:41,119

they're not although they're training

1527

01:01:39,200 --> 01:01:44,240

with each other they're not always

1528

01:01:41,119 --> 01:01:47,440

uh on on friendly terms and uh

1529

01:01:44,240 --> 01:01:50,319

so the the port there

1530

01:01:47,440 --> 01:01:51,119

is also essentially populated by foreign

1531

01:01:50,319 --> 01:01:54,079

merchants

1532

01:01:51,119 --> 01:01:54,960

and but very much deliberately

1533

01:01:54,079 --> 01:01:58,160

cultivated

1534

01:01:54,960 --> 01:01:59,039

by the uq kings as their source of

1535

01:01:58,160 --> 01:02:00,480

income since

1536

01:01:59,039 --> 01:02:02,799

obviously they didn't have a whole lot

1537

01:02:00,480 --> 01:02:06,400

of uh of agrarian

1538

01:02:02,799 --> 01:02:08,240

lands uh to to rely on

1539

01:02:06,400 --> 01:02:10,559

so i think that's a model that really

1540

01:02:08,240 --> 01:02:12,799

emerges at that point in time and

1541

01:02:10,559 --> 01:02:15,680

as i said eventually persists into the

1542

01:02:12,799 --> 01:02:20,000

18th century spreads to southeast asia

1543

01:02:15,680 --> 01:02:23,039

even though it disappears from east asia

1544

01:02:20,000 --> 01:02:24,799

thank you thank you

1545

01:02:23,039 --> 01:02:26,319

maybe i'll jump in with a question for

1546

01:02:24,799 --> 01:02:28,160

sun q um

1547

01:02:26,319 --> 01:02:30,480

we all know that even today the great

1548

01:02:28,160 --> 01:02:34,160

wall looms is this

1549

01:02:30,480 --> 01:02:37,039

kind of mythic symbol of china it gets

1550

01:02:34,160 --> 01:02:38,880

kind of imbued and all kinds of cultural

1551

01:02:37,039 --> 01:02:40,799

coding is projected onto it

1552

01:02:38,880 --> 01:02:43,440

so i'm curious from the period you're

1553

01:02:40,799 --> 01:02:45,440

looking at the ming dynasty

1554

01:02:43,440 --> 01:02:46,480

the ways in which the great wall is

1555

01:02:45,440 --> 01:02:49,039

imagined

1556

01:02:46,480 --> 01:02:50,880

and what pieces of that continue on up

1557

01:02:49,039 --> 01:02:51,200

until the present day and which pieces

1558

01:02:50,880 --> 01:02:54,319

of

1559

01:02:51,200 --> 01:02:55,599

that story fall off and are abandoned in

1560

01:02:54,319 --> 01:02:57,599

terms of

1561

01:02:55,599 --> 01:02:59,280

a renewed imagination of what the great

1562

01:02:57,599 --> 01:03:01,119

wall is today i just kind of wonder if

1563

01:02:59,280 --> 01:03:02,799

you could trace the continuity of that

1564

01:03:01,119 --> 01:03:06,640

cultural imagination

1565

01:03:02,799 --> 01:03:09,920

of this site over time a little bit

1566

01:03:06,640 --> 01:03:14,000

yeah sure um i wish i can

1567

01:03:09,920 --> 01:03:16,079

clarify it but yeah i would try um

1568

01:03:14,000 --> 01:03:17,599

yeah what i think interesting in

1569

01:03:16,079 --> 01:03:20,799

waihuan's story

1570

01:03:17,599 --> 01:03:24,000

is that he basically

1571

01:03:20,799 --> 01:03:24,880

justified the wall building so that's a

1572

01:03:24,000 --> 01:03:27,200

kind of major

1573

01:03:24,880 --> 01:03:28,000

breakthrough from the previous period

1574

01:03:27,200 --> 01:03:30,880

because

1575

01:03:28,000 --> 01:03:32,319

previously i think most of the writings

1576

01:03:30,880 --> 01:03:34,480

kind of tried to avoid

1577

01:03:32,319 --> 01:03:35,359

even the mentioning of chengchong they

1578

01:03:34,480 --> 01:03:38,240

tried to

1579

01:03:35,359 --> 01:03:40,000

conceptualize it in a different way so

1580

01:03:38,240 --> 01:03:42,640

it is not tang chun but they were

1581

01:03:40,000 --> 01:03:44,559

actually building and they were kind of

1582

01:03:42,640 --> 01:03:46,720

keep reminded that it is actually

1583

01:03:44,559 --> 01:03:48,000

similar with the great wall they are

1584

01:03:46,720 --> 01:03:51,359

thinking

1585

01:03:48,000 --> 01:03:52,319

so but then after week one i gradually

1586

01:03:51,359 --> 01:03:55,520

see more and more

1587

01:03:52,319 --> 01:03:57,839

mentioning about kind of giving positive

1588

01:03:55,520 --> 01:03:59,520

connotations with the chang so it is a

1589

01:03:57,839 --> 01:04:01,520

scenic practice and even one of the

1590

01:03:59,520 --> 01:04:03,039

authors in 1560s

1591

01:04:01,520 --> 01:04:04,880

it is actually interesting because he's

1592

01:04:03,039 --> 01:04:07,119

fujian native so he has no

1593

01:04:04,880 --> 01:04:08,079

expertise he has no background but he

1594

01:04:07,119 --> 01:04:11,359

still says

1595

01:04:08,079 --> 01:04:12,000

changtung is one of the three major

1596

01:04:11,359 --> 01:04:15,359

inventions

1597

01:04:12,000 --> 01:04:18,400

by ancient sage kings and wise rulers

1598

01:04:15,359 --> 01:04:22,480

so they gradually uh make this

1599

01:04:18,400 --> 01:04:25,039

um kind of narrative one is that it is

1600

01:04:22,480 --> 01:04:27,599

necessary because it's kind of a scenic

1601

01:04:25,039 --> 01:04:29,760

practice uh invented by their sage king

1602

01:04:27,599 --> 01:04:33,119

to protect the humanity or something

1603

01:04:29,760 --> 01:04:36,400

and then the other thing is that it is

1604

01:04:33,119 --> 01:04:39,520

um yeah so the first thing

1605

01:04:36,400 --> 01:04:42,240

is that it is conceptualized as more

1606

01:04:39,520 --> 01:04:42,559

ethnocultural way which is quite similar

1607

01:04:42,240 --> 01:04:45,760

in

1608

01:04:42,559 --> 01:04:46,480

i think modern prc terminology even

1609

01:04:45,760 --> 01:04:49,839

though

1610

01:04:46,480 --> 01:04:52,160

i think their special unit is

1611

01:04:49,839 --> 01:04:53,599

kind of bigger so they kind of try to

1612

01:04:52,160 --> 01:04:57,280

handle that

1613

01:04:53,599 --> 01:04:59,359

how the northern uh who barbarians and

1614

01:04:57,280 --> 01:05:00,880

chinese were interacting with each other

1615

01:04:59,359 --> 01:05:03,680

each other in their

1616

01:05:00,880 --> 01:05:04,400

modern uh archaeological practice but

1617

01:05:03,680 --> 01:05:06,799

anyway

1618

01:05:04,400 --> 01:05:08,799

yeah so the first thing is that it is

1619

01:05:06,799 --> 01:05:12,000

defined as ethno-culture

1620

01:05:08,799 --> 01:05:14,640

terms the other one is kind of linear

1621

01:05:12,000 --> 01:05:16,079

development of the great wall so

1622

01:05:14,640 --> 01:05:19,359

previously

1623

01:05:16,079 --> 01:05:20,559

there was no continuous attempt to

1624

01:05:19,359 --> 01:05:24,640

define it

1625

01:05:20,559 --> 01:05:26,400

as a like a their contemporaneous world

1626

01:05:24,640 --> 01:05:29,039

as a part of

1627

01:05:26,400 --> 01:05:29,440

uh continuation from the ancient great

1628

01:05:29,039 --> 01:05:32,240

wall

1629

01:05:29,440 --> 01:05:33,599

but then now they gradually make that

1630

01:05:32,240 --> 01:05:36,960

connections more clear

1631

01:05:33,599 --> 01:05:39,359

and even acknowledge it so

1632

01:05:36,960 --> 01:05:41,359

i think that uh evolution of linear

1633

01:05:39,359 --> 01:05:44,720

evolution of the great wall

1634

01:05:41,359 --> 01:05:47,680

it is actually very similar with what we

1635

01:05:44,720 --> 01:05:48,240

now see about the great wall so it was

1636

01:05:47,680 --> 01:05:51,520

what

1637

01:05:48,240 --> 01:05:53,599

at one time like in many many uh

1638

01:05:51,520 --> 01:05:54,720

millennia ago it was invented and then

1639

01:05:53,599 --> 01:05:58,079

it somehow

1640

01:05:54,720 --> 01:05:58,640

kept uh reappearing and developed and

1641

01:05:58,079 --> 01:06:01,440

then

1642

01:05:58,640 --> 01:06:03,760

extended all through throughout the

1643

01:06:01,440 --> 01:06:07,520

northern frontier so yeah i think in

1644

01:06:03,760 --> 01:06:10,319

that two ways it is

1645

01:06:07,520 --> 01:06:11,680

kind of similar with a modern prc

1646

01:06:10,319 --> 01:06:16,079

understanding of the

1647

01:06:11,680 --> 01:06:18,000

great wall yeah thank you

1648

01:06:16,079 --> 01:06:19,200

so we're running a short on time do our

1649

01:06:18,000 --> 01:06:22,319

panelists have any

1650

01:06:19,200 --> 01:06:23,920

final questions for each other or anyone

1651

01:06:22,319 --> 01:06:26,480

in the audience have a question before

1652

01:06:23,920 --> 01:06:26,480

we wrap up

1653

01:06:30,960 --> 01:06:34,720

if not i will take this opportunity to

1654

01:06:33,520 --> 01:06:38,319

once again

1655

01:06:34,720 --> 01:06:39,920

thank well esther our assistant director

1656

01:06:38,319 --> 01:06:41,440

of the center for all of her help the

1657

01:06:39,920 --> 01:06:43,200

technical staff

1658

01:06:41,440 --> 01:06:45,280

from the international institute and of

1659

01:06:43,200 --> 01:06:46,000

course all of our three wonderful

1660

01:06:45,280 --> 01:06:48,079

presenters

1661

01:06:46,000 --> 01:06:50,000

and our audience thank you all for

1662

01:06:48,079 --> 01:06:50,880

sharing this your time this beautiful

1663

01:06:50,000 --> 01:06:53,599

afternoon with us

1664

01:06:50,880 --> 01:06:55,039

online um please if you're not already

1665

01:06:53,599 --> 01:06:56,640

subscribed to the center for chinese

1666

01:06:55,039 --> 01:06:58,640

studies mailing list

1667

01:06:56,640 --> 01:07:00,400

you can go to our website and sign up we

1668

01:06:58,640 --> 01:07:01,359

also have a facebook page a youtube

1669

01:07:00,400 --> 01:07:03,440

channel

1670

01:07:01,359 --> 01:07:04,480

and we will have more events this

1671

01:07:03,440 --> 01:07:07,680

quarter

1672

01:07:04,480 --> 01:07:10,559

uh early next month jungling

1673

01:07:07,680 --> 01:07:12,400

a well-known chinese writer will be

1674

01:07:10,559 --> 01:07:13,359

doing an event with us we are working on

1675

01:07:12,400 --> 01:07:15,680

a teach-in

1676

01:07:13,359 --> 01:07:17,440

dealing with han wieger relations in

1677

01:07:15,680 --> 01:07:18,559

xinjiang which will probably be in

1678

01:07:17,440 --> 01:07:20,319

december

1679

01:07:18,559 --> 01:07:22,880

and a whole bunch of other events so

1680

01:07:20,319 --> 01:07:24,960

please stay tuned to the

1681

01:07:22,880 --> 01:07:26,559

mailing list to find out about that but

1682

01:07:24,960 --> 01:07:28,000

again thanks again to everybody we

1683

01:07:26,559 --> 01:07:29,200

appreciate it and look forward to seeing

1684

01:07:28,000 --> 01:07:31,839

you at future events

1685

01:07:29,200 --> 01:07:31,839

take care everyone