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Duration: 01:02:18



Unknown Speaker 0:00

And, you know, especially I want to thank Professor takizawa for participate. I mean, giving a lecture early in the morning in Japan time. I think it's only just after 8am now, right. So I thank you so much for doing this for us. I also want to extend my thanks to Tech Center for sponsoring this event. And also, Miss Marika Cano, who help us organize this event. Okay, so before introducing Professor takizawa, I'd like to I'm sorry, by the way, my name is cut here. I know, I teach history at UCLA. I'm the host of this event. I'm sorry about that. So before introducing Professor takizawa, I'd like to mention the format of this event. Professor takizawa will give a lecture for about 30 minutes, and then we would take questions from the audience. Please write your questions in the queue and a box at the very bottom of the screen. I hope you can see that q&a box. Okay. And then we'll be able to see your question. So that presser takizawa will respond to your questions. Or if you like to ask questions directly to prusa takizawa. Please let me know, so that I would turn on the screen and you'll be able to ask questions directly to fossa takizawa. Okay, so let me briefly introduce prosthetic is our professor jasco. takizawa is a professor of cultural anthropology at the Institute for Research in the humanities at Kyoto University. She's a pioneer of critical race studies in Japan, and has been conducting many groundbreaking, collaborative project about the history and theory of racism in Japan and elsewhere. She has completed multivolume works, cold deconstructing the race myth in Japanese, Jean Shinwell kaitai, Cyril, in 2016, that address programs ranging from scientific racism, to representations of racial identity, how other work or how other publications include breaking the silence, redress, Japanese American ethnicity, and most recently racialization and discourses of privileges in the Middle Ages, Jews, gypsies, and kawara, mono ethnic and racial studies, among many outstanding contributions that Professor takizawa has made to critical race studies. One thing I like to emphasize is that how interventions have problematized and challenged the common discourse that racism does not exist in Japan, by doing so prusa takizawa has contributed to complicating the ways in which we discuss race and racism in Japan and elsewhere, and made us aware of different histories and forms of racialization, which are often neglected by your American perspectives. So please join me in welcoming Professor takizawa. Please,

Unknown Speaker 3:39

thank you for the kind introduction. He doesn't say, sir. It is my great honor to have this opportunity to give a talk at the terasic Center of Japanese studies at UC LA. Thank you for the invitation. And also I'd like to thank hidden says and the money guy con Austan, for organizing this event. He also asked me last week to talk more about my studies that demonstrate the approach that incorporates both Japanese as well as Europe and American experiences. Because of the current circumstances, we have only half an hour fidgets totally understandable. So please allow me to give only some snapshots of my some of my studies from that perspective.

Unknown Speaker 4:35

Let me start with how Japanese society has responded to the black brothers. Black Lives Matter movement 2020. The demonstration took place in major cities such as Tokyo, Osaka, Nagoya and Kyoto from late May through to all in July and it is repeated About 3000 to 3050 3500 people gathered each time on different weekends in Tokyo. And for all I know, weekends less, but it seems that the more than about at least about the half of the participants are people ordinary from foreign countries, and those with mixed racial backgrounds, though there are also some human rights activists, LGBTQ individuals and those interesting anti racism and social justice. And the in the middle of the Black Lives movement in mean dzong a tweet a tweet by a baseball player Louis Okoye

Unknown Speaker 5:49


Unknown Speaker 5:50

who is far as from Nigeria, and and whose motto is Japanese attracted 180,000 like responses. He confessed his childhood experiences. In the keynote kindergarten, a teacher taught. In his quote, in a kindergarten teacher told us to draw a face of one of our parents. She said, Let's paint with a skin color crayon. And in those days, though, it was abolished now. I won't list about 2010 to 20 years ago, there was a crayon code, skin color, and which is what we call pale pink today. And the square with tears in his eyes, drew his father's face with a brown crayon. And as he expected, everybody in the classroom laughed at it. And during his elementary school days, students from higher grades teased him about his skin color and said, at your home court at your home, I bet you eat you all eat bugs, right, quote. Whether you verbally speak this out explicitly or not many people have internalized this racial hierarchy, which is in part globally common due to the Western hegemony, and in other part evolved during Japanese nation building and colonialism experiences. One of the outcomes of 2020 BLM movement in Japan is that it has promoted the general public's awareness of racism in Japan. It has also contributed to make known the plight and circumstances of such people as blacks, people of African descent, and are people of mixed race such as those with African and Japanese backgrounds. One of the common comments My colleagues and I received from students in my own in our own classes across different universities in Japan, is that a certain percentage? Not large, but not insignificant answer that they realized that there is racism in Japan. And there's this they all are aware that their discrimination and hate speech and hate crimes against minorities groups, such as I need Koreans I knew Brock mean, and workers originary from foreign countries, but most of them hardly associate them with the word jaintia sabots meaning racial discrimination. in contemporary Japan, the discourse around racing has been framed narrowly to address issues of immediate concern. Notably, ethnic discrimination means exhibits and discrimination against foreigners. Geico godine sabots although there is now an emerging literature that addressed the issue of discrimination in light to the concept of racism in Japanese,

Unknown Speaker 9:00

okay, it's a hybrid, it's already

Unknown Speaker 9:04

no more than 10 minutes about so I will skip and I will go to the omean the Winelands. Okay, so I was going to talk about landscape court case in 2012. When there was hate speech and hate crime against Kyoto Korean school, the Court made that a judge the first time in the court history, saying it, it was racial discrimination. These changes are better to address discrimination against phenotypically invisible people, which is Koreans in this case. And in that quote, and they cited International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of racial discrimination and It's Article One, item one. And Fitch defines racial discrimination as discrimination exclusion and berbere based on race, color, descent of national, national or ethnic origin. So, to use the word ratio declination, these summits to refer to diff nation or in equal treatment against phenotypically invisible minoritized groups was an epoch making.

Unknown Speaker 10:32


Unknown Speaker 10:36


Unknown Speaker 10:37

and this was not isolated cases that after that there are other incidents, and then and they were criticized in the name of Jesus abbotsleigh racial discrimination. Okay, now, I'd like to move to this slide. Oh, I think anybody who is interested in the race and ethnic studies, in knows, Michael Omi and Howard weiners books are very influential, maybe one of the most influential books in race studies, racial formation in the United States. And in the third edition, which was published in 2015. There's this sentence, quote, race is certainly a modern concept. It is linked to the conquest of the Americas, the rise of capitalism, the circumcised circumnavigation of the globe, the Atlantic slave trade, and the rise of European and then United States domination of the Middle East, Indian Ocean, and the Pacific Rim as well. And I admire their work. And, you know, I was one of the ones who, who get benefits from their works. But as time passed, I started to think that this is probably a little bit too heavily based on transatlantic experiences, and some, also some idea of a NEO Marxist idea, which is all important, but it does, you know, I have to say how much it can be applied to societies outside of transatlantic societies.

Unknown Speaker 12:26

And we have to keep in mind that these encounters derived from intercontinental mass migration, in other words, huge, huge long distance massive population movements, which naturally resulted in the encounters of peoples with significantly different paradigms. For these reasons, the typical academic narrative about race is that it is a modern Western construction, and that it has been used to race has been used to justify the exploitation of labor or deprivation of land, and other resources involving transatlantic slave trade subsequent encounters between Europeans and Africans, as well as Native Americans and other indigenous peoples.

Unknown Speaker 13:26

However, we have to question but it is universal to pay particular attention to phenotypical differences, such as skin color, as the primer, really marker to differentiate the self and the other. This is a one of the famous number bonds greens number means literally means Southern barbarians, the word came from a Chinese tradition, because of ship came from southern part of Japan. Anyway, this painting was produced around late sixth somewhere between late 16th and early 17th century. And here there is this encounter that involves huge long distance migration. But look at how the you know the skin tones of these individuals have different backgrounds. And the one the woman inside that indoor have very light skin. And if we use another different painting, this is his by Colonel Nathan in late 16th. Look at these supposedly probably put out, you know, the high rank, maybe Jay Z or these people depicted no lighter than Japanese or even darker than some Japanese. And these workers who seem to be in walkers who walk outside they have this tanned, darker face. And again, these Japanese have very light skin. And so, it's more like the gender and status differences than those depicted with different skin tones. And there is little differences in skin tones, though in the ways they depict draw Europeans and Japanese and also look at this someone from it seems to be from Africa and john Russell, anthropologist, teaching in Japan, he points out that these African servants are not dehumanized but depicted in dignity.

Unknown Speaker 16:11

So, in other words, Japanese did not see at least these pre modern times did not see the differences in skin color between themselves and those from this country. And it is not just because they are from these Portuguese and not because they are Portuguese, and Spanish, Spanish, no other southern Europeans. The next slide is This is Matthew Perry. And, and again, you see, in some kind of depicted in a comical, like, looks like a Japanese traditional thing good. But, like look at his skin tone, which is not necessarily lighter, or and his big ground because his eyes and the prominent nose and very curly hair kinda will be exaggerated and not his skin color, not the skin color. So, we tend to believe that you know, recognizing the difference the skin tone is something natural that everybody gets first notice the difference, but like I say, you know, this is not really necessary or universal. Okay. Next, the Mark, Mark Smith, who studied the discourses of smell among blacks in this house, say says that the existing literature on race tended to treat race as an exclusively visual phenomena, but he is saying there this goes to the smell and touch and other things in the south. And Peter Wade, British anthropologist, states that quote, what most definitions have in common is an attempt to categorize peoples primarily their physical differences. And as Michel Foucault says, you know, in European modernity, the vision was given prioritized and that system non knowledge was formed by visual observation and classification. So, in other words, natural scientists observed the shapes and size and the color of human bodies, and sometimes skeletons and so forth.

Unknown Speaker 18:44

Okay, so

Unknown Speaker 18:47

I, so that's how I develop my own redefinition of race. So I claim race to be in something believed to be genealogical determined, believed to be genealogical, determined, and mediated by bodies and that cannot be changed. And second boundary between the self and error to exclude, to exclude the data to assume a hierarchy between groups. So there is this assumed hierarchy between groups, and it has more exclusive nature than the concept of ethnicity. And not just that political, economic and social institutions and the rich resources related to relate related to race, race, inter inter, related to interest through institutional differentiation. So in other words, it's not just prejudice, but it's necessarily tied to these political economic concerns and all these resources and the institutional lized Then I also argued earlier that there are three dimensions of race. race in the lower case refers to indigenous racialized Indian nationally racialized groups, free from pre modern times, the both in and outside Europe. So I'm I'm saying that Windows race is not a European construct. And race is not a Western construct. And second race in upper case refers to Western origin, in the name of science, you know, it's a mapping and classification of people, and that race in uppercase, disseminated across the world. And the third is race as resistance, our our resistance against hegemony and domination, awaken the productive resistance of races, identity, politics and so forth. So, today, for the rest of time, I like to focus on this race in the lower case, which I claim existed,

Unknown Speaker 21:05

both in and outside of Europe, in

Unknown Speaker 21:09

and in pre modern times, and after modern times. So this is karamo, in the medieval period, who most of us who later be called Baraka mean, today, we call most but not necessarily hundred percent of the same people, but the most real. So they handle this, their occupation was to they made money they make living by slaughtering animals and making letters and so forth. And and this in this some Edom, a monkey mono, you see this, these men are using a river water Campbell River, in Kyoto, they have to use water to float animals and to make leather and, and so they basically lived in river river banks. And so it was more not in a day. It wasn't like a set settlers, they want settlers, because river banks sometimes, you know, they're the water flies and they move from here to there. So, it was not settle residence

Unknown Speaker 22:31

and the kind of mono

Unknown Speaker 22:34

and I define them as race because I, for example, there were laws. So, in other words, this is where institutionalized discrimination comes into play. So there was even low in mid 16th century. If we do not discriminate. Carmona, if we do not discriminate against karma, no, you are punished. So here to codify the law says both seeds and men, women who associate with caracara, mono will be punished by stones being piled on top of them, and the social interaction, and the marriage was broken and prohibited.

Unknown Speaker 23:16

And this is the article that came out this spring in ethnic and racial studies here and says they kind of introduced a moment, qui moments ago. And I'm first my interest I have some familiarity with a history of Karna mono animism, Carmen and Baraka mean, but when I was reading someone's works in Jewish history in Spain, and in Jewish history in Europe in general. I was struck to find and I just thought how similar how striking is similar the ways they were marginalize and in my own language regularized so I said, the more I read, the more I found similarities between Jews and and also it was also I found the similarities among people called the gypsies in those days in Romania. And there are five factors Jews, among Jews in Spain, gypsies in domani, and the Carmona in Japan in Middle Ages. The five factors I found in common is first, the discourse surrounding their different origins. And the second perception that they are polluted or contemptible, and that they're prohibited from intermarriage and intermarrying with each other. And third, they have histories as known center as what travelers or later cameras in predominantly known agrarian print under him, so agrarian societies. So in other words, they were engaged in different occupations different make life making than those majority in predominantly agrarian society, I think this is one of the key issues. And number four, they are marginalized. But because they were excluded from, you know, agrarian, agriculture and other dominant occupations, they had to occupy certain occupations, which other people didn't like, for example, money lending, is a taboo in Christian Christianity, slaughtering animals is also you know, against the Buddhism teaching, and the blacksmith and so forth, also marginalized occupations, but they found a niche that, that gypsies cloacal gypsies, they found a niche in Romanian society in that particular time period, because the people who used to be in in engaged in those aggression hadn't left and number five is discourses of privilege in the relationship with the rulers. So, I don't go into the details, but I found in I know from primary sources, but from secondary sources, and I also ask Durand does expertize top level award top level expert expertise of each history to so for example, this is about Jews and the public, the homeowner has complained of Christians because with the greater liberty the power accorded to the enemies of the face, especially the Jews, in the, in our home Kingdom in the Royal House, old Barbara, all Christians are forced to obey them and fear them and bow deeply to them. And and we are captives of the Jews and subjugated to them. And that they are also very similar. And it this one up Oda Nobunaga. And one of the first ones fully integrated into Japan. And then he had the documents show that he had a close relationship with cada mano in amama District, which is downtown Kyoto now, and then he promised to arrest and punish perpetrators in the event of arson violence are being deprived of property by majority enemy forces, and then we turn the karamo yamabe known to have accumulated enough wealth in because they monopolize, they, they because they were excluded from other occupations, they were able to mobilize this

Unknown Speaker 28:11

you know, business of serving animals and hunting riders, they some of them are quite a few of quick prejudge. So, they gave a significant money, monetary contribution to Nobunaga. So there was this give and take relationship between these minoritized groups and, and the rulers. Okay, should I stop within a few minutes? He understands that?

Unknown Speaker 28:38

Well, I think you can let me see you can have another five, six minutes, I think. Okay.

Unknown Speaker 28:45

Yeah. So, some of you may have visited gingka de Silva pavilion in Kyoto very famous tourist spot, but the the list down the escape was done by Karma Karma No, because karma no some of them knew how to handle water because they used to live in riverbank

Unknown Speaker 29:06

that again,

Unknown Speaker 29:08

you know, they had again, this is another example that the karma mana had a close relationship with rose purple level. And the underlying factors but I found in common is in the basis and resources for the economic activities came not from land, but from personal or movable property and skills, such as money, linguistic ability, and like a translator for juice, and knowledge and tools, materials and ability needed for blacksmithing performance or cooking for gypsies, and skills necessary to skiing and butcher disease horses and cattle. So the slaughtering cow is not easy in a slaughtering a pig or horse. A pig is a little more less challenging than sorting, you need really skill, how to slot cows. So they had these skills. So, in other words from things indispensable to the ruling class, for expanding and maintaining their military power, sovereignty, wealth in this place of status, they the rurales needed these people's skills, or movable property and so, so forth. So, some oftentimes, all these groups, if not everybody, but all they are cases that these groups but tax exempt and sometimes exempt from military services and so forth. And, and it wasn't necessarily they were they were given privileges, but the popular general public sewed and how come they get these special treatment they have privileged so so, there were this generous populace had

Unknown Speaker 31:05


Unknown Speaker 31:06

thought they produce this narrative so discourses about today's people of course, but then on the hundred wall among the each group monopolize the West, and when depression or Femi or political instability or new lower came in, they get they become scape goes by generous kimonos. So, um, this, I just, I think my Chi goes different people in different outside of Japan today say, Yeah, I see the similar problem among Dalits in India, or blacksmiths in Africa, meeting in Micronesia. And also, this common pattern may not be just limited to the three groups I discussed today. But it may have more wider implications. And today, I didn't have raised in upper class, this is this side, so called scientific concept. But just briefly show, you know, these blue member has five classifications of races, introduced in all the major in 1870 to eight, all image school textbooks. And this is, I'm sure it's from French influence and for Dido first rate, first class white race as first class, yellow race as second class, black race as a third class. So this kind of hierarchy was introduced to Japan in modern times. And this is interesting, this is by senior GI Joe, martyrs of the West, written by kusa, Yuki G. And he acknowledges his butt book is based on translations of different different research associates from outside, but this is strikingly similar to you know, is this Cornell, the high school geography published in that state in at 16. And then, of course, there is also Japanese colonial nation building and the Japanese colonialism experiences. For example, here look at Asian race, just skins yellow, with the exception of my own Yamato, I'm sorry, I shouldn't Yamato race, their powers, the Asian race powers generate declined. So this is something original, you know, it didn't exist in the theories or claims imported from West in the beginning of the Meiji period, that this is how Japan that Imperial Japan developed its own in the midst of colonial colonization, and Empire expansion. So this is some of the images of the books published within the past 10 years and this is my

Unknown Speaker 34:11

edited or co edited William,

Unknown Speaker 34:13

thank you very much. Sorry, I used six minutes.

Unknown Speaker 34:18

Thank you so much. Okay, so we'd like to take some questions from audience and please write your question in queue and a box that you see at the very bottom of the screen. Um, okay.

Unknown Speaker 34:36

So I should finish slide.

Unknown Speaker 34:42

That's okay. Because I was on the Can you see the questions? Actually, we have one question.

Unknown Speaker 34:48

I do I have to finish or I don't have to

Unknown Speaker 34:52

stop sharing.

Unknown Speaker 34:54

I think it's fine. Keep the screen as it is. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 34:59

Oh, I see it. I got to I see, I see one question is karma no different from a tahini? Actually, in old days, it was called eta and he needs a different country but it was called the EPA and and the and and the in

Unknown Speaker 35:21

Hilo sensei knows this better but

Unknown Speaker 35:25

in late mid Middle Ages they developed to intervening and what came to be divided but it is now considered to be a derogatory term. And I karamo is a term used in academic

Unknown Speaker 35:43


Unknown Speaker 35:45

But basically it refers to the same time where people, thank you for the question.

Unknown Speaker 35:51

Okay. Any other questions? Yes.

Unknown Speaker 35:56

Okay, great. So we have another question.

Unknown Speaker 36:00

So when I lived in Japan, about 20 years ago, there was discussion of a declination against Peruvian and Brazilian immigrants to Japan, or Japanese ancestry. Is that still the case? And can you discuss that a bit? Yes, I agree. And, and then the some of the books I have which images I showed on a previous slide, deal with racism against these workers from for foreign countries, but include an EKG and people of Japanese descendants, and their spouses, spouses. And so there is not just physical, you know, physical of what the Japanese blood or Japanese body that this is, there's this global ranking order among countries in different countries and the United States it's ranked at the top and, and the rubber bands so I so even among occasion, descendants of Japanese immigrants overseas, the Japanese Americans, now it is reported Japanese Americans are treated better than those from South America. And of course, there's a this the American hegemony and linguistic resources, you know, someone who speaks English than someone who speaks Portuguese and and what kind of occupations they're engaged in, usually Americans come more, you know, unskilled labor and a skilled labor professionals, whereas many, if not all, Japanese Brazilians work at factories and and those play as unskilled laborers or semi skilled laborers. Okay. Oh, big questions. Yeah. Okay. In them in okay. In the major period, do you see this cause of race and race existing similar? Tanya Simon? Oh, yes. Oh, or does that. So, the question is, in a major period, do you see this causes of race in the lower case and race in upper case existing simultaneously? Or does the new discourse will raise an upper case subsume or displace, what existed previously? No, I think even today, the the three dimensions of race exists simultaneously. So in the, in, in the, in the Meiji period, for example, if I take the case of Berkman gam know there was this indigenous discourses of welcoming and they have this prejudice and discrimination and so forth. And then, because of the Western scientific theory, they applied to black coming to I knew and Okinawans, they measured body size, they checked the skin tone, and somehow they thought black me had a darker skin tone, which is not, you know, no science has no scientific ground. So there was a Yes boss. And even in night, in the 1920s, see, heisha there's this black liberation movement took place. That's a good example of race as resistance. And even today, genomic, you know, with people discuss, and this genomic age, and the racialized using the DNA and so forth. So yes, these three Dimensions race exists simultaneously, after age period and anywhere in modern times and on contemporary days.

Unknown Speaker 40:15

Okay, another question. Thank you for a great talk. I'm not familiar with the concept of discourses of smell a Mark Smith. Oh, can you please tell me is that really to the notion that Westerners smell like better? No, I think how race is made, I think the title of his book was how race is made. And he was talking about the discus that exists in the south. And, for example, the white people, some white people in the south say, Oh, that must have been in this room because I smell you know, black, something like that. So it's not just fair, no typical, perceived defendant typical differences, but the disgust they will smell that make race. Okay. I think I answered that. Oh, oh, okay. I do. Oh,

Unknown Speaker 41:13

you're good. You have quite a lot of questions. Oh, okay.

Unknown Speaker 41:17

Definitely, it is very apparent to me that racing me this thing. Why do you think it is that the mainstream thought in Japan that racism doesn't exist there?

Unknown Speaker 41:26

Yes, yes.

Unknown Speaker 41:29

I'm not even. It's not limited to Japan. I think this con, this idea, public, public, understanding, misunderstanding, race, that race refers to biological concept, and applies to human categorization based on physical characteristics is still in the states too. But it's more prevalent in Japan. And then nowadays, in school textbooks, they teach racism more than race, which was the case maybe 2030 years ago, you know, nobody. But even today, the examples they gave in textbooks are blacks in the United States, or about the hate in South Africa. So people still have this, you know, idea that race refers to overreach or discrimination refers to only those declination declination based on phenotypical. differences. So that's why Oh, we don't have you know, people be know that they are Koreans they are discriminated against and the black media discriminating against the nine, but they do not necessarily associate these forms of discrimination with the idea of racism or racial discrimination. Thank you for the question. And

Unknown Speaker 43:03

thank you for that. You have talked about why race cars and race concept historically? Don't you think that we tend to confuse scientific concepts of race with the concept of race itself? Do you agree that the concept of race is later medieval? That race is a scientific concept, which brought the idea into contact with taxonomy? and physical anthropology is modern? Can you please comment more on this distinction and the relatively recent abandonment of the idea of race by many anthropologist, yes, so that's why the question is asking people up many people confused. Scientific concept was concept of race itself. And I think there is a great deal of confusion even today. And there's no no, you know, biological reality. But when we talk about race, invented, in the name of science, is a modern phenomena. That's what I call race in uppercase. And the idea of race, which is more, you know, something to do with body. People believe it's inherited through your body or your body exists in pre modern times, but not in ancient times. I don't think race is universal. I don't think race is a human nature. And I think it's more to do with division of labor, which came into existence only in medieval times. Okay, next. Is there still Baraka? Yes. And Dover area in Japan? Yes, yes. Um, yeah, um, many, especially Western Japan, but in in eastern Japan, too. But those who do not want to be identified As welcoming they leave their trash in our communities. And because thing you can speak filigree invisible, the markers and mobilized our location of your where you grew up, grew up didn't know the neighborhood you grew up and occupation, they'll be parents, oftentimes they handle, you know, they do a butcher and business and so forth. Okay. It's their mainstream Japanese literature on the topic of racism as like, how to be anti racist in the US that became popular during AI. Yeah. If yes, what are your thoughts on this literature? Do you think it is problematic? helpful? Both? Well, um, yeah, I ended how to be an either racist I, it was a very you know, it make make make us think about every day unconscious practices of racism. But I'd like to, I'd like to tell you that we I, I call when I the conference, just a week ago, October 11, by jack means, aka Daniel science. And it was, and we both physical anthropologist, and kerajaan smallest, we everybody addressed how we can diminish racism in Japan. So we are trying to, you know, it's not like a book, but I'm, I'm proposing to make a book out of the conference, and we'll probably have a part two conference, but we kind of stepped forward, not just, you know, here, the historical model and the sofas, we actually stepped forward and suggested, you know, each has its own its own way, his or her own way, how one things we can diminish racism. So, and it's open to the public. I mean, my homepage, it is available, it's only in Japanese, but if you can listen to if you can understand Japanese, please visit my homepage, website. Um, how can you speak about how governments have sought to regulate, abolish the blood coming, regulate, abolish the Brockman abolish, abolish D, do you mean the abolition of the existence of black mean, or

Unknown Speaker 47:41

no, even among black coming, it's not homogeneous, some black women think, to integrate marrying out moving out is the best solution of abolishing discrimination, and the other black woman's think they should be proud of their own history, and nothing to hide, and even old maps, they think it's that old names that can be identifiable, as a brand new neighborhood should be open and available to the public. So for those people, they don't want to be you know, they don't want to they don't want to block me into ink going to exist and knowing existence, they want to proudly maintain their own communities. And the problem is government Japanese Government has long you know, these days have been silent about and they don't acknowledge the discrimination against black women is a one form of racial discrimination. So they say it's not it's it's not race it's not about me it's not race back discrimination negative about me is there isn't discrimination but it's not racism. So that is more problem. What is the relationship between indigenous opinions and I knew I know people to native Japanese today why I'm some of the activists they always have alliances with other minority groups. But calling Okinawa's indigenous isn't is it's not easy it's it's not homogeneous again. The United Nations when they had the warnings to Japanese government, they use in the word engineers indigenous referring talking hours, but many Okinawans didn't like the idea and some some activist promoted that idea that many people no we are not indigenous we Okinawans, so it's a you know, like it's, it's it's different from the American prevalent idea of calling. This is more complicated than one may think. I know, I think there's a pretty much consensus that they themselves and everybody you know, they are indigenous to indigenous people in Japan but Okinawans among working on there are different perspectives and opinions. So thinking about the number on screen that you had mentioned on I'm curious about how Oda Nobunaga seen. Yes, get the black slave rolled over by the jute jazz it in high regard. Is it safe to say that medieval Japanese did not see a difference in skin tone as the Europeans dead? Well, Japanese notion of skin tone was more of a class differences is that's what I said, I think this notion of a class notion of skin tone was different. In those days from today, in Japan, even Japan, that the historical documents, I also read some materials, like a jenseits diaries, you know, translated in contemporary Japanese and English men and they say they observed how Japanese responded to black Africans and people from Southeast Asia who have also darker skin, but shorter. And then some and then Jesus diary says some Japanese traveled from remote place to just to see this, these black people because they they had never seen them. But the but the Jesuit also says the Japanese were more struck. By the way these blacks were treated inhumanely than the skin color itself. So I thought that was very interesting. So they were, you know, they were curious, and they have never seen as someone with dark skin, but they are most struck, by the way they were treated, and very humanely.

Unknown Speaker 52:11

So I thought that's a very

Unknown Speaker 52:14

Okay, could you talk about where Okinawans fit into discussions race in Japan? How do most Japanese now see Okinawans? Today? I think prejudice against Okinawans then maybe many young people even probably never heard of it, because so many pop singers or actresses actors from Okinawa, so the but the people in the old days, they know that Okinawans were discriminated I mean severely, in all year, maybe even 30 years ago, 20 years ago, and maybe even today amongst some people in mainland Japan. So, in that sense, I think they are also racialized, and it's very prominent, in late middle and only major period as well. And they were actually displayed displayed at the World Fair. So they were no racialized and the object of gaze of modern times the majority. Do we still have Can I still go on? You don't say that.

Unknown Speaker 53:39


Unknown Speaker 53:41

I'm interested in the fact that the Kano model used to monopolize the slaughtering and skinning business, a profitable industry which become a point of envy and target of being blamed. In modern Japan, typical hate speech is against Yes, yes, the Korean Japanese Korean claim that Koreans are privileged to monopoly industry such as Pachinko filmmaking mass media. Some untrue accusations are such that Koreans in Japan do not need to pay tax or bills as only learning Japanese do. That Dido kukai the right wing group claim How do you see the similarity that claim Dominic, thank you for asking this great question. Because though, you know, my my inquiry into the the dis identifying the similarities among the three different groups, and especially in relation to the concept of privileges, the discourse in privileges that that the starting point was this hate speech and the hate crime by Dido Chi and other water wings against Koreans. The blackening and I knew accusing them that they had privileges. So, Mike first first, that was my first question that was lingering in my head for a long time. And I see not necessarily the exactly the same, but there's something similar. Because Noma I forgot, he's the guy to cook, I know, you're talking against, it's not Coco. I think that discuss the myth of special privileges. I think written by Noma, I forget his first name, but I knew that that book explains how, you know, this, this discourses of not paying tax, or they're getting social welfare, all these untrue myths. So, you can check that book and see in that more details, but the society out when there is some relationship between just a small group of activists and and the central would say, for example, central administrative institutions, for example, City Office or Ward office, and sometimes they they negotiate with how to improve ratio, racial declinations or how to improve this economic and social disadvantages. so forth, pitch came from discrimination. And then in not in saw it, sometimes there was there is, or they at least, there was a close relationship between the center of the administration and these marginalized groups. And it's not privileges, but in the eyes of our wing people, it appears to be privileges. So

Unknown Speaker 57:07

and So, in other words, for them,

Unknown Speaker 57:10

these minoritized groups always have to be always in all any circumstances, they have to be inferior, they have to be disadvantageous. If there's something you know, that try to make it balance. They think they call it a privilege. So I think there are some similarities between the ways that the deeds medieval these was excluded racialized and sometimes targeted and and and and and accuse forgetting and privileges and contemporary Miss untrue Miss. Could you talk more about treatment of Japanese Hmong people of Korean descent? It's it's I need this is not easy to answer within one minute. But there are more really diverse. Really, I think we need to pay more you know, there's there may be some stereotypical image of Dinesh Koreans in Japan. But even within Danish, Korean Japan, there are so many mixed

Unknown Speaker 58:23

Japanese along who has Deaf

Unknown Speaker 58:26

one, one side Japanese and the other side Korean photo Korean Mother, you know, there's mixed racial background. And some identify with one side that I don't want to be the other side. And somehow in the center, I don't want to be affiliated with any of them, just like mixed race people mixed with people. And also if among Korean descent, fourth generation fifth generation, without whether they want to come out or whether they want to come out it's really varies depending on individuals.

Unknown Speaker 59:03


Unknown Speaker 59:04

Okay. One more question, Ron. Okay,

Unknown Speaker 59:06

so this is a final question. No long ago, there was a tendency for entertainers to visualize their Korean heritage in a similar way to black Americans. Is this bar ization still common? If so, are they are invisible minorities. That is, that is, is cool to be an even it is still to how does this affect prejudice in practice? How this openness helped make difference, less important. Yeah, I don't know whether it's cooled or not, but the more and more people come out. And also, there are now very famous popular novelists who discuss the experience Is as Korean dynamic Korean, so people have in general become more open about it. But it doesn't necessarily mean dydacomp zydeco guy or outgoing people become quieter. So but I think, actually the, the boom, the haha boom, the general public admiration for people of mixed race, usually half white and half Japanese, but other times half black and Japanese. But I think there is this sense of being cool to be half and at least that's not what maybe not they themselves think. But now how. So there are really consumed in advertisements, and newscasters and TV and so forth. So that kind of admiration for half or trend, you know, half the treating half people as cool has affected Korean half Korean people as well. So instead, now, they mostly I'm half an hour, I think all days, they didn't use the term hardware even though one of your parents in Japanese.

Unknown Speaker 1:01:25

So that may have

Unknown Speaker 1:01:28

helped that people. They have helped that that the way they identify themselves, but it's not dream society. It's far from dream society. Thank you very much for the wonderful questions, all questions I really enjoyed and a very stimulating. Thank you so much. And thank you for so much for listening.

Unknown Speaker 1:01:50

Okay, thank you so much. We had actually over 15 questions. Oh, impressive. And thank you so much for answering all the questions as well, within return short time. We appreciate it. So thank you all for participating in this event. And once again, thank you to Professor takizawa.

Unknown Speaker 1:02:10

Okay, that's all thank you. I really enjoyed it.

Unknown Speaker 1:02:14

Thank you. Bye.

Unknown Speaker 1:02:16

Bye. Thank you.

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