0:00 Good morning, I'm Kal Raustiala, director of the Burkle Center for
International Relations at UCLA and I'm glad to be able to welcome you back to one of our online book talks. we've done a couple of these. we have a couple more coming up and today I'm really happy to have Jim Newton, my UCLA colleague, who I will introduce properly in a moment but before we do that just to remind everyone how these work and let you know
about a couple of upcoming things. so so first of all I'm gonna introduce our
speaker Jim Newton and Jim will talk for a little bit and then we'll have a conversation and then I will pose questions posed by all of you. please use the chat function to put in
your questions and then I will sift through those and read them to to Jim and we'll wrap in about an hour so. that's our that's our basic kind of structure and and mode of operating. in terms of upcoming talks before we get into this one I just want to remind
people
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you should have seen an email for this if you're on our list but on June 17th we're gonna have Ben Rhodes former deputy national security adviser to President Obama who recently wrote a piece in the Atlantic on the 9/11 era and the end of the 9/11 era and so Ben's gonna come on and talk about about that piece but also about what time we're in and and how we've transitioned out of the kind of national security framework that's that's really shaped by the last two decades. and then I think our last one until we take a summer pause though I guess in this current world I'm not sure if we need to pause any more, Peter
Singer of New America who's one of our partners has a new novel out called
Burn-In and it's a novel that also is really a sort of futurist book about warfare and cyber warfare and the changing role of Technology in conflict. it's heavily footnoted and source so it's not your typical novel. so we're gonna Peter on to do probably a little
reading and discussion about that as well
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on June 24th so so those are our two upcoming events for today's talk
Jim's book about Jerry Brown man of tomorrow the relentless life of Jerry
Brown is available really everywhere but we have partnered with diesel books in Brentwood and Delmar as a kind of local bookstore partner and they have the book available through purchase so I think online and in-person so I urge you to do that. and with those preliminaries out of
the way let me introduce Jim and turn
things over to him in a moment so so
first of all Jim Newton is probably
known to many of you if you're a
longtime Angelenos as an editor as
a reporter as a news figure at the LA
Times for many many years. he currently
is at UCLA where he teaches in our
communications department and at its
Blueprint Magazine for UCLA out of the
Luskin School. and Jim has written
several biographies over the years and
many other books as well
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but I was
really struck by this one and I was glad
to be able to get Jim to come on and
talk about Jerry Brown. and let me just
say a word about why I wanted to do this
because obviously it's a little bit of a
different topic the Burkle Center
typically doe. but I think that Jerry
Brown as governor first of all is a
incredibly important figure for for
California and therefore for the United
States in the world but also really
pioneered a very proactive foreign
policy for the state of California in
his first two terms to some degree but
especially in his second two terms. and
we'll talk about that and we'll talk
about the way that Jerry Brown in his
later years travelled the world as
almost a head of state and was treated
as such by many people around the world.
especially in the Trump era and I think
that's made hims kind of a unique
governor in many respects. so so that
drew me to the book and I really want to
recommend the book. it's fantastic but
obviously there's a lot of depth to the
book that goes well beyond the foreign
policy dimensions
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so with that kind of
long introduction out of the way let me go
over to Jim. Jim maybe you could just
start us off with some some basics about
how you came to write this book.
Alright well listen first of all thank you
Kal thank you Burkle Center and for all
of you for joining us. I appreciate this
has been an unusual book tour for me but
you're now part of it
very much. so yeah I thought I would talk
for just a couple minutes on how I came
to write this book and then I'm really
eager to take questions from all of you.
I was born California raised mostly in
California with high school up north in
Palo Alto and then went away for many
years first to college and then I
worked for the New York Times and the
Atlanta Constitution. throughout my
interest has always been in covering as
a journalist has always been covering
government politics. I came I became an
editor at the Los Angeles Times in the
early 2000s 2001 or 2002
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and at that
point was given responsibilities among
other things for Sacramento coverage. it
was the first time that I that my covers
responsibilities had included state or
men and I then I was interested in
learning more about the history of
governors in California as a result.
mm-hmm my research in that led me quite
soon quite quickly to realize that there
wasn't a great biography of Earl Warren,
which at first seemed
sort of frustrating and then seemed like
kind of an opportunity and so I wrote my
first book. It was a biography of Warren.
because Warren grew up in California and
was longest-serving governor at that
point in history of California through
the early 1950s my biography of Warren
covered California history roughly
speaking from 1900 to 1950 and then kind
of left off because of course he left to
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go to Supreme Court where he made most
was national impact. but that but then as
I later didn't know that it was his book
when you talk more about that later if
you'd like but that book allowed me to
write it back his time Kal when he's
congressman from the Monterey area I
still was there but I still was eager to
kind of wrap up or bring into the
present the history of California.
Jerry Brown seemed like a logical sort
of vehicle by which to explore of that
history and so this book really attempts
to do two things which is to write to frame it
as a biography of Brown which I hope it
is enough to satisfy in that regard
but also to be a history California from
about 1960 to the present day. yeah
the book starts at opening day in
Candlestick Park the first day of
baseball was played at Cal State Park on
April 12th of 1960 and though it flashes
back a little bit after that because
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Brennan was born in 38 just sort of
bring you up to speed in his early life
it then kind of attempts to cover the
history from that point forward I was
encouraged in that by the way by a great California historian who wrote
most of the history of California,
although this period is largely missing
from his history of California. I knew
Kevin he was friend and I went to him
when I was thinking about this project
just frankly to kind of make sure that
he wasn't intending to fill in this
period in his history and he told me no
he wasn't.
He wasn't fond of counterculture and so
he had no intention of covering this
so he opened the gate for me. um so all
that grew to the book. I say one more
thing about it and then and then turn it
all back over to all of you but the real
big question then for me is would Brown
cooperate with this book.
and I didn't...I knew Brown a little bit
before. I knew him as
governor.
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he was governor when I was high
school. sort of feels like he's been
governor my whole life. but I didn't know
him personally. I'd met him a few times
in the context of my work at the LA
Times he'd come in for editorial board
they did some things we chatted and I
was a member of the panel when he
debated you know Kashkari in 2014, so our
paths had crossed. but a an exaggeration
to say that I knew him. so I approached
his campaign consultant Smith up in
San Francisco who I also knew from
reporting who kind of referred me on who
liked the idea but sort of referred me
on to Brown's wife and also
his closest advisor and she and I
discussed it a couple of times before I
ever talked about it with Jerry Brown.
ultimately I think once she was
persuaded that I was interested in
writing an objective history of the period and
centering it around him but not being
exclusively about him
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she recommended it
to him and then he agreed to a bunch of
interviews so we talked every few months
from beginning in 2015 through the end
of his fourth term and Beyond. and we can
again we can talk more about our
relationship as we go today but that
became not not the exclusive by no means
the exclusive source of the book, but
he's obviously an important those
interviews became a important pillar of
the book. he also gave me access to some
private papers that he hadn't revealed
to anyone prior and you know basically
in many ways are sort of pattern was for
me to come with him to talk about it
ends of the day to talk about history,
and then for him to end up talking about
whatever he felt like talking about and
he come along for the ride so if we
spent a lot of time together, talked
about a lot of subjects in my my sense
of him deepened and in some ways change
over the course of that the book as a
more is more heavily emphasizes his
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spiritual and intellectual roots and
interests. I think that I would have
thought I was doing that's not something
if you were writing a book say about
Earl Warren that would be a direction
that would come naturally. but it is so
fundamental I think to who he is that
the book is less of a traditional
political biography and more of a kind
of intellectual spiritual exploration
than I expected it to be when I set out.
and that's the the
byproduct of the luxury of having had a
lot of time and so that's that's all I
guess how this book came to be. it
attempts to tell the story of Jerry
Brown and all his contradictions and
difficulties and complexities the the
story of a you know very unusual a
political figure who governed twice as
in the same job. governor 28 years apart.
so also trying to examine and if the
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difference is what what you can learn by
seeing a person at two different stages
of his life
in such a consequential job and also to
tell the story of California across that
same period. so whether it succeeds or
not is ultimately up to you but that's
that's what I set out to do.
and so back to you Kal.
yeah okay
terrific so um let me start off first
obviously cannot ignore what's been
going on in in Los Angeles and
throughout California really throughout
the world over the last week in regards
to George Floyd and and kind of policing
in general and I'm curious I haven't
seen Jerry Brown say anything about this.
maybe he has and I'm curious what if you
know what he has said
but regardless what do you think he
would be doing if he were governor right
now?
I have not spoken to him in the last
week nor have I seen him speak publicly
so since this disturbance really took
the country by the throat. I have not I
don't know what his response has been I
have spoken to him and appeared at some
events with him web event since the
coronavirus ripped the country so one
crisis ago.
12:02
there I can say with more
confidence I think how he's responding.
and you know there I have no I have not
heard him criticize Gavin Newsom in
any respect so I don't know that there's
any difference. I don't know that he
would be handling things materially
differently that Newsom is. I do know I
guess they were found was that you would
be handling things differently the
Donald Trump is and certainly he makes
that argument I think they think he i.s
I've heard him be most critical of Trump
with regards coronavirus is a
slowness to respond to take the lessons
of other countries. I've heard him talk
about South Korea and Taiwan in
particular as countries that had early
warnings and reacted strongly to them
and contained the buyers as opposed to
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what he sees degree as Trump's haphazard
and and slow response you know they're I
think in many respects Brown you don't
have to take his word for it that he
would respond in that way that I think
his experience with climate change is is
an indicator of how he would respond to
a scientific crisis of international
proportions and and the way he's
describing how he would respond is very
much the way he has responded to climate
change
as to the current unrest I really don't
know I mean I you know his father was
governor during the Watts Riots in 1965
kübra and was out of office and that
long in a regnum between his
governorships he was so he was out of
office in 1992 when we experienced the
Los Angeles Riots and certainly one
lesson of the Watts Riots that his
father learned the hard way is that
being had a position and responding
slowly has political consequences his
father was in Greece too when the Watts
Riots Rebbe did he was difficult for him
to get back and he was criticized for a
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slow response there you know Jerry Brown
is not just a reaction to his father and
sometimes she takes umbrage at the
notion that he is but he did learn from
his father's experiences in so I suspect
that he would want to respond quickly
you know this is a different experience
than 92 I was active in covering the 92
riots and different in the sense that
it's much broader than much more of the
country is involved in this unrest also
different though and since the Los
Angeles at least is less it has been
less lethal here in LA and less violent
widespread a prolonged and broader but
maybe not as deep and as violent so
that's what lessons there are lessons on
all sides of that equation I suspect him
and all I can tell you for sure is that
Brown has lived through a lot of that
both directly and through others and so
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I suspect that would inform his
response. exactly what it would be or
how it would compared to Newsom's though
I know less about that than I do.
great great thank you so let's let's
turn to some of the things you do cover
directly in the book that are relevant.
you just mentioned climate change which
is an issue that he really did champion
early on but even beyond climate change
one of the signature things about him in
in first two terms was that he was
really ahead of his time in terms of
thinking about environmentalism
as a political movement. so it existed as
you documented many of documents well
before he was in office but he really
took environmentalism on.
you talk a bunch of the book about small
as beautiful as a kind of mantra that
that both the movement broadly
understood believed in but that Governor
Brown really believed in a kind of
personal way with regard to many things
even arguably the University of
California.
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okay he was not one to you
know you contrast him to his father his
father grew the University and
respectfully Governor Brown seems to
sometimes want to reduce it or certainly
keep it in its in its lane
yeah really not really offering the kind
of funding and support that his father
did so there are some differences there.
but but regardless with regard to
environmentalism he was someone who was
a path breaker and so I guess I'd like
to hear you just expand a little about
how he saw the environmental movement as
a political force and specifically as a
kind of Californian issue. what was
Californian about it?
yeah those are a lot
of big questions wrapped up in there and
it was yes yes I'm sorry there's Richard
Mack he was an early he recognized early
the dimensions of the environmental. you
know some people I think somewhat
incorrectly date one of the one of
the most moments in that was Santa
Barbara or as some people call it the
beginning of the environment. not sure
that's true
but it's important and one of the
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interesting things when one looks back
on that period and compares today is
there was not really significant
partisan just difference of opinion with
respect that they were clearly
individual politicians who took
different views of environmental issues
but it wasn't a cleavage issue in the
way that it is today.
Brown's environmentalism goes back at
least that far and he the objects of
that environmental concern earlier have
changed over the years you know coastal
protection air pollution you know acid
rain smog those were the issues that
dominated the 1970s and by the way the
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Air Resources Board here in California
was actually born under Ronald Reagan in
early
my her a reminder early on that these
four less divisive issues. one of Brown's
signature important accomplishments in
that early era was to put Mary Nichols
on the Air Resources Board she's then
one of our UCLA colleagues there you go
and and you know arguably the person who
has done more to clean air in this
country than any other person ever and
she enjoys enjoyed that Pedrosa today
Miss Brown identified her early on now
by the second terms which is to say the
third and fourth term the focus of his
environmental concerns had shifted not
shifted but had evolved into climate
change on and there again Arnold
Schwarzenegger also achieved some
important milestones with respect to
climate change maybe 32 which is the
greenhouse gas emission in California
that provides the framework for measure
this is assigned by Schwarzenegger like
Jerry Brown guided California through
the environment or the economic collapse
at the end of the night or at the end of
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the 2000s 2000 2009 came back to office
in 2011 back to economic health while
also managing and imposing some of the
most stringent environmental
restrictions climate change goals and
restrictions of any state in the country.
so not only is his a kind of rhetorical
leadership of the environmental movement
but it's practical leadership of it with
respect to climate change and and
proving to any remaining doubters that
the one does not have to choose between
economic health and environmental
protection but that there is a viable
way to achieve both
I mean it's within my life as a reporter
that that was an accepted wisdom that
one had to choose and so I think that
anyone who clings to that today really
has to reckon with the fact that
California has proved otherwise
and and I think Brown deserves the
lion's share credit for that so that's
now there is another way to talk about
him in the environment I will go on and
on here but and that is as an outgrowth
of his spiritual upbringing and
20:05
experiences Jesuits this experience was
then Buddhism there is a humility that
comes in when confronting environmental
issues that has to do in his mind I
think fascinatingly with the
contradiction of with an absolute that
it's not an argument in the same way
that some arguments and politics are in
fact one of that most interesting
political things that I have heard him
say that's a long list of those
is when Donald Trump dismissed climate
change his response to that was to say
that it was proof that Trump lacked a
sufficient fear of God that to me is a
nice merger of the spiritual and the
political and brand and the environment
is more than any other issue along with
criminal justice maybe but I would say
even more than that in some ways the
place where one sees his his spiritual
exploration expressed as a political
percent of priorities so interesting it
really makes him an unusual thing I mean
he's he's unusual in so many ways but
it's one of the really distinguishing
things about him
21:13
just to stick with climate and kind of
the environment for a moment when he and
though and say his fourth term in
particular I think but maybe even in his
third when he would go abroad he would
be received as essentially a head of
state and be be treated I mean granted
California is the fifth largest economy
in the world we ought to be I would
submit a nation state we probably better
off if we were but you know he was
treated that way by many people around
the world many foreign leaders and he
seemed from my casual observation happy
to play that role and so I'm curious why
you think he was so successful on the
global stage not just here in California
what made him attractive I mean there's
some obvious what what do you think made
him a truck yeah no I think that's a
it's an excellent question
the first and foremost I think what
you've already said which is that he
represented this enormous entity even
22:00
within the context of the United States
such an enormous part of the United
States and as you say the fifth largest
time they won the California is about
the size of Britain when it terms to
economic comes to economic activity so
in many ways I think was just you just
if you were a prime minister or brick
that is I think then even compounded
further by a couple other things one is
his longevity you know he talks about
meeting with you know leaders in China
whose parents he knew I mean you know
he's he his relationships are very deep
and very long with a lot of his a lot of
countries with wish the United States or
the California interact and then other
things the novelty of him I think he's
been he's interesting to people all over
the world I mean you know even things
that that may seem trivial but the
nevertheless make him interesting is
relationship with wonder once that his
you know his identification with the
kind of youth movements of the 1970s and
60s some of that is he's correctly
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identified with and some not but he
comes out of a period in which
California is fascinating to people so I
think all of that makes him interesting
abroad
makes him fascinating and then finally
particularly with respect to climate
change is the fact that he he could make
an argument that he's done more than any
elected official anywhere to really
address climate change within the within
the limits that a state can do so and
actually I said finally but I'll had one
more which is that in the last two years
of his administration
it's just opposed against Trump and so
to have the leader of the largest unit
of the United States pushing in one
direction on climate change while the
leader of the overall United States
pushing in the other I think for a world
that's looking for leadership and
looking for American leadership on
climate change Brown became an effective
n leader because Trump abdicated that
role so egregiously yes-no agreed and I
think one of the interesting things as
some of the viewers probably know
24:00
California has been active Brown I think
initiated this though parts of it may go
back further to Schwarzenegger and
others in partnering with foreign
jurisdictions Quebec and other places
for cap and trade system system for a
b32 that's being challenged in the
courts right now by the Trump
administration kind of a
what arcane but really interesting
constitutional question about what
states like California can do on the
international stage but without question
Brown pushed it to to whatever limit
there is I think he pushed it there he
also I think what I really liked about
what you just said is he to me
represented sort of personified
California's soft power and one of the
things that made California such a place
of interest to people around the world.
from let's say the mid 60's onward was
the dynamism the creativity the
weirdness of California . California was a
place those incredibly creative not just
in the conventional way of Hollywood but
you know we invented the internet we
invent you know you can go on and on
with the things that we invented and
25:00
Jerry Brown with his unusual life really
kind of embodied that soft power and I
think that continues today I think
that's absolutely right and I think
interestingly there are times in his
life where that has worked against him
politically and times when that's worked
for him I mean like in his presidential
campaigns yeah I mean I think you know
okay I hate to even even raise it but
it's always out there which is mundi all
right governor Moonbeam
what is what does governor Moonbeam me
and why did that stick with him well can
I pause for a second can you tell the
story about the reporter or the
columnist Jim that's a good I'm sorry a
good place to start this Rick Mike Royko
I was a columnist in Chicago very
successful newspaper columnist and Rieko
wrote a column that he later disavowed
but he wrote a several columns actually back
26:00
in the 1970s 79 80 in which he labeled
Brown government and they were part of a
larger kind of glib columnist dismissal
of California as a whole it's just a
wacky place where you know no good came
out of this sort of kooky left-wing you
know left coast kind of place. that was
the tone of the columns and they were
vastly unfair to Jerry Brown then I mean
less fair to him today but they are part
of a
so East Coast Midwest view of California
in the 1970s that it was kooky weird as
you say I think accurately. and Brown is
utterly identified appropriately with
California and so to some extent as
California went so did Brown and versa
27:04
now over time a lot of what was being
talked about then looks less kooky and
more prescient I mean the notion that
someone looks back and sees an advocacy
of solar energy for instance as kooky
ridiculous now I mean things that that
went into Moonbeam Solar Energy smart
buildings satellite technology also the
fact that he was unmarried and dating a
celebrity that all kind of wraps into
this idea. a lot of that's been
vindicated by time and so as I said I
don't think it was fair even in the
instant and Royko himself came to regret
it but the reason it's stuck in has has
haunted Brown I think to this day is
that it did capture a kind of feeling
not just about him but about California
and that that feeling has changed a lot
over time a lot of what seemed fringe
28:00
now seems foreshadowing and and
forward-looking. and and Brown some one
way I think much of what seemed kind of
wacky yeah I would even add his
championing of diversity in the
California government on the courts etc
it was not unique to him but he pushed
it arguably further than any other
political figure of his time and his
first two terms and continued that and
again has been vindicated let me ask
about another
29:00
topic that he really had a
great interest in and has kind of
international dimensions but also
domestic dimensions which is nuclear
power and weapons and just kind of the
whole question of what just the nuclear
revolution mean and Browns one of videos
one of the older politicians around
lived through you know the dropping of
the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki
unless members but you know he was he
was you know old enough to remember I
think
an early stage in his career took a real
interest in a topic that many people
today simply ignore so tell us a little
bit about why that was a big deal for
him and what you know kind of what his
stance was yes well Brown as you say is
old enough to have lived through the
actual use of the bombs he remembers the
end of the war I don't know that he
remembers my conversation with him I
will call him talking about the bombs
themselves being trapped but he
remembers the war and so he's won in 38
he he was involved in the anti-war
movement and so I think early on found
it quite natural to question the place
of nuclear weapons in the American
military strategy he was a critic of the
use of the participation of the UC
system and particularly the Lawrence
Livermore Lab
in the development and refining of
nuclear weapons just because I know I
know we have a lot of UCLA viewers and
30:00
we're both UCLA people and I'm sure
there's many UC alums listening and
watching just say word about that
relationship is they think people don't
always appreciate that yeah it was I
mean the the complicated part of that of
course is that the lab performs work for
the Department of Energy in connection
with and the lab does other things as
well and so Brown there was a movement
Daniel Ellsberg and others were involved
in movement while Brown was governor in
the first two terms to try to end
weapons research at Lawrence Livermore
the the complicated aspect of that is
that the UC system had some dominion and
over that but not over the Department of
Energy's work itself and so we're led a
kind of half-hearted and ultimately
ineffective attempt to sever the
University from the weapons first round
as governor incorrect in his second term
31:00
I believe so in this first round is coming
yes it did it came through one of the
region's had failed he was not it's not
exactly clear to me anyway or am I sure
it's clear to him what
haven't had that vote succeeded but it
was at a minimum a an expression of
unhappiness that the UC system was in
some way supportive of this weapons
research and so at least as a as a
matter of symbolic debate it was an
important question that was debated that
was confronted in those years he came up
short in terms of the actual votes but
it was an avenue for him expressing his
unhappiness with the University and
therefore the state's problem in weapons
research he came a little more slowly
and with a little more nuance and
complexity of the question of non
weapons use of nuclear energy which to
say no clear energy there he had you
know. for instance I've been Diablo
Canyon protests which occurred again his
first term as governor he had to do the
complicated thing of being both a
32:05
protester and also the governor who had
responsibilities to ensure the
protection of these plans he didn't
actually have licensing authority over
them that's a federal Nuclear Regulatory
Commission responsibility but when there
were the protests the Diablo Canyon for
instance there was the question of how
to handle the protesters like we're
talking about today
whether its arrest people so had one
class rate who should be responsible so
he was both a speaker at the Diablo
Canyon purchase and also the governor
who oversaw the arrests of people at the
kingdom amazing that's complicated
and as a result he sort of walked a line
that maybe didn't totally pleased either
side in that very complicated debate he
has remained a in later years he's
focused much more energy on nuclear
weapons as opposed to nuclear power
33:11
there he was animated in part by Bill
Perry really lovely and quite shocking
in some ways examination of the state of
nuclear weapons on the threat of nuclear
annihilation post Cold War Braun read it
in manuscript forms Perry I guess Perry
or zone so they were very sensitive
Brown he read it and
you know Brown is very fond of the
warning shot he's very attentive to
those who sound an alarm that other
people aren't listening to you and in
this case Perry's book really got under
his skin he actually called up the
editor of the New York Review of Books
and and sort of demanded that they
review and they responded appropriately
by asking him to review what you did and
he and Perry remain close there and in
content Brown is very concerned with the
notion of a nuclear accident in
particular and and I'm very concerned
about cutting heading back
weapons agreements and communications in
such a way that an accident could
escalate and as you he like Perry has
come to conclusion that the dangers of
nuclear war may actually have grown and
34:01
the post Cold War era not subsided so of
the things that he's now very involved
in post governorship the three things
that really seem to animate him the most
in our criminal justice reform nuclear
weapons and climate change and he's a
senior position with the bulletin of
Atomic Scientists he speaks out
frequently on nuclear weapons and just
become a it has been an issue for him as
long as I can go back with him but it
has become even more so I think it mmm
well I have the honor the very first
year I was director at Burkle Center we
had bill Perry to campus to speak it
fantastic and very prescient on these
things and what's interesting about
Braun is he does seem to have a very
finely tuned set of antennae for the
kind of cataclysmic long-term issues
35:01
that politicians simply ignore because
or typically ignore because they're so
far in the future and so abstract I
think most people have a hard time
grasping them and can I think
fortunately climate change has become
something maybe it's unfortunate that
people feel it's less far in the future
and we're seeing a little bit more
movement certainly here in this state we
have seen movement but not nearly enough
so I really applaud him for for doing
that so let me let me just ask about a
couple of other things that I will turn
to we have a lot of really great
questions
so I guess one you know one question is
how he you compare in the book is this
sort of shift out of the foreign policy
realm for a moment you compare in the
book his his first tour in his second
tour and then as governor and then in
the middle he's also a mayor and so give
us a little flavor of how being a mayor
changed his style of governing if you
think it did change it yeah where do you
think his his different approach in a
second tour was simply the results of
36:03
being older and wiser well listen we
started when I started this book one of
the things many of the things I ended up
saying in the book are not things that I
set out to say that I've learned along
the way but one thing I knew that was
interesting and important to address was
this question of comparing the two
governorships as I said earlier I was a
high school student when he was governor
the first time so I had memories of that
but not as a reporter and then of course
I watched job very close to third and
fourth terms and it's often and
correctly observed that he was quite
different in those two sets of terms and
let me more focused or effective I think
in certain ways at identifying and
addressing problems and actually solving
them in the third and fourth terms the
first two terms I think fondly
remembered by some and not so fondly by
others as we were chaotic is more
experimental as him really rattling the
37:09
cages of California government and by
extension national issues but more is a
provocateur I think unless as a
practitioner and so then the question
that you rightly pose is sort of what
changed he's 36 years old when he became
governor of California he was 80 years
old when he stopped being a from
California that in and of itself is part
of the change he is yeah as he likes to
say he didn't value experience until he
had experienced it many realized how
valuable it was so some of it is getting
older and living longer and but I think
two events of that you know in a regnum
period
really standout as transformative for
him and one is being mayor of Oakland
you know Jerry Brown was not a local
official before he was governor he was a
briefly a community college board member
in Los Angeles and then he was Secretary
of State and then suddenly at age 36
38:03
governor so he had never done the work
of a mayor or a council member or a
County Supervisor for him government I
think in the first iteration the first
governorship was there for more about
clashes of interests as he said and I
used in the book and said about labor
versus environmentalists or it's about
you know the military or you know that
the prison guards versus criminal
justice reform errs and it wasn't really
about people in their lives it was more
about these abstract abstractions and
confluence as mayor you know it's about
getting the Whole Foods into downtown
Oakland it's about building housing
units and it's about it's not
environmentalism as an ism now it's
about you know if somebody wants to
build a deck on their property
overlooking a lake what does that do to
people enjoy the lake and so some of
yeah Jerry Brown in many ways I think
39:03
one of the odd arcs of his life is that
he goes from abstraction toward a more
concrete life whereas most of us go the
other direction
and part of that I think in his
political development was being mayor
and seeing the actual implications of
policy and actually in the lives of
people I and then he brings that
experience back with him in the second
ownership and I think it's a big part of
why he's more effective the other one on
a more personal level is that he got
married the Angus Brown his really
extraordinary intelligent and capable
and also just really dear person to
things I would say him as marriage one
is this something very positive about
him that he recognized all those
qualities and and gasps that shows a
kind of connection on an individual
level that was more abstract to him I
think in the earlier years and the other
40:00
is that he listens to that that he
really does
rely on her and has come to trust
another person in a way that I'm not
sure I mean he had lots of advisers and
lots of people who talked to in those
regions but I don't know that he had
that kind of you know really concrete
reliance on another person in those
earlier terms so all of that I think
goes into making him a much much more if
I could governor the second time and a
mayor Merrill is a hmm great okay so we
have a lot of trivia questions from
viewers so let me go to them apologies
to those of you whose questions I won't
get but some some are some are just
really compelling and some are doubles
and some will just run out of time but
let me start off with a brief one which
really hits on a hot-button issue we
didn't discuss but you do spend a lot of
time in the book talking about and the
question is how does Jerry feel now
about his support for prop 13 mmm we
might query did he support prop 13
really and so maybe answer that as well
41:05
yeah he did not support Prop 13. um so
that's part of the answer he posed prop
13 but then it's not to absolve him
altogether he he opposed prop 13 he he
and the legislature once the momentum
behind prop 13 was gaining and therefore
too late in retrospect passed an
alternative tax for base measure that
appeared on the ballot as well I think
it was the obvious even at the time and
certainly more so in retrospect that it
was kind of too little and too late
there's another way in which Brown I
think contributed to the energy behind
prop 13 and though this is a little bit
being punished for a good deed but is
that he ran a big state surplus as he
did in his fourth term and for those who
felt overtaxed and had felt buffeted by
the threat of being taxed out of their
homes older people the notion that they
would be paying what they regarded it as
unfairly high taxes at the same time
that the state was running a surplus
42:00
added to their anxiety and their anger
so all of that I think caused Brown both
to underestimate and in some ways at
least indirectly to contribute to the
minimum
on Prop 13. he opposed it and he was
warned that it might pass and he didn't
take it seriously and then it did once
it passed and this is probably what the
question is referring to he very quickly
embraced it now there he got a lot of
criticism to the criticism there I think
it's a little less fair of him he's
governor of California and the people of
California had just approved prop 13 I
don't know that he really had a
practical alternative other than to
implement and the way he implemented it
at least temporarily blunted some of the
negative aspects of prep 13 essentially
he spent the surplus on trying to make
up the difference the prop 13 created
now again you can criticize him for that
that delayed some of the political
reckoning with the seriousness of prop
13 to have allowed that reckoning to
43:01
come sooner and inflicted that pain
earlier while sitting on a surplus I
suspect would have created its own
criticism of him justified so I'm a
little less critical than some people I
think of his handling post prop 13 and
you know he described himself as a born
again tax cutter and though for
political purposes he kind of wrapped
himself around it going forward and that
one can be offended by that he but I
think the four in my view the more
serious offense that he committed
related to prop 13 is his
underestimation on that going he
probably he and the legislature had been
more attentive to the anxieties in the
state that led to prop 30 and had acted
more forcefully earlier to head them off
we might ask and he didn't do that great
great so another question is related to
where we began but yeah I think you can
kind of go in at some some different
directions so the question is what would
Jerry Brown's advice be to Gavin Newsom
in the current social crisis gripping
California but also the political crisis
44:09
in the face of White House animosity
towards California so one of things
that's interesting is we really do have
this kind of resistance
mentality to some degree in California
these would be the Trump administration
but that's reflected right back at us
and that's something we haven't seen
in the history of California quite as
much before so so I guess I would make a
friendly amendment do you think that's a
good thing in other words are we doing
the right thing by kind of having this
oppositional pose and and then back to
the question what yeah Gavin well one of
my one of my favorite photographs in the
book is that there's a photo you all
will recall that president from visited
California in the wake of the Paradise
fires when she weirdly were just a
pleasure city and pleasure but Brown and
Newsom accompanied him uncomfortably on
45:00
his tour of the fire area and there's a
great picture in the book of Newsom and
his windbreaker sort of with Trump and
Brown almost visibly biting his tongue
and between those people not Trump but
the others I was able to piece together
their day on the shoveling around the
fires Californians virus and something I
pointed to incredibly uncomfortable
experience with you know Trump come in
brown that he needed to listen to
environmentalists who said don't let the
dam up the rivers the idea that Donald
Trump real estate developer and golf
courses owner would lecture Jerry Brown
and Gavin Newsom about the
environmentalists it's just it hurts
your ears to hear but Brown did take the
view that well well you know he's huge
of this view he did take the view that
that he shouldn't engage in political
rancor with Trump just for the sake of
it that he had to keep the interest of
California and mind and if insulting
Donald Trump meant that it would deny
46:01
services or benefits of California's
that he should hold this time now he
didn't always do that because it was
hard to and you know on this day that
that Newsom and he retorted with drum in
Newsom's case loosen was governor elect
at that point it's the Animus is
strained even further by the fact that
nous sommes ex-wife is dating Trump's
son so there's a level on a personal
level this is just freakin horrible I
mean I mean it's just hard to imagine
you know I mean Brown for the most part
of tried to avoid kind of head-to-head
confrontations with Trump during this
those two years he didn't always do that
he was I
to be with him the day after the Trump
administration filed a lawsuit against
California challenging and sanctuary
policies on immigration Brown was
furious Leslie he was furious with me
again with the understanding and my
materials go into the book and therefore
wasn't coming out the next day but you
know he felt both the Jeff Sessions then
the Attorney General was wrong and the
substance that he misrepresented
California sanctuary policy and also
that it was just bad form for him to
47:07
come to Sacramento and file a lawsuit
and not even tell the leadership here
that he was doing any of that
the brothers outraged and then of course
Browns he just could not stomach Trump
on climate change and there are a couple
times when he just couldn't hold that
and I don't blame him to tell you the
truth but but I do think it's governors
are governor's first and political
figures second and there is an
obligation when someone might do some
work around to secure benefits for
Californians even if that means
occasionally having to hold the comp
that I certainly have seen that at work
with Newsom and coronavirus where he
seems that wanted you to have gone out
of his way to express his appreciation
with Trump administration I'm fairly
confident that's not out of any personal
appreciation for Donald Trump but out of
a sense of obligation to residents yeah
yeah agree next questions it is the lit
this is the the questioner writing he
writes I've always been impressed with
48:10
Governor Brown's focus on fiscal
austerity balanced budgets excessive
debt etc you talk a lot about this in
the book this is really a through-line
and the writer goes on he's unique among
progressives for his concern with these
issues
Republicans have generally left them
behind Democrats never seem to care much
how would he view this time and what
would be his prognosis for the future so
I'd say this as much of a
comment as a question in that but but
it's a great opportunity to talk about
the fact that he was even personally a
believer in austerity he lived a
relatively austere life
you talk in the book about how Pat Brown
sort of cashed in one might say at the
end after being governor and you know
Jerry does not seem to be doing that and
the way that his father did and as far
as I know he's not doesn't seem to be
his personal style and so Jerry Brown is
somewhat unique in terms of his
appreciation and even I might say kind
49:09
of fascination with austerity yeah yes a
lot of good information wrapped up in
that question too well a couple of
things first of all I would say this is
a good example before Jerry Brown didn't
I follow after his father either as a
governor really as a person it's often
said the jury reminds many people more
of his mother and his father
sometimes that's correct and sometimes
it isn't I think he looks more like his
mom so that sort of starts from that but
one way in which he very much is more
his mother's son than his father's is
that he's cheap he she was a coupon
clipper and oh she was careful with the
budget and you know Jerry Brown can tell
you how much she spent for lunch today
I'm sure we'll be putting - you hardly
ever spend any money on lunch he was
famous for not having money and not
carrying a wallet not anybody's pocket
is Governor Willie Brown lost any
governor or mayor of San Francisco and
also a Speaker of the assembly I
50:04
interviewed Willie Brown early in this
process and I never seen him at one
point you know just described your
relationship with my new friends are you
business colleagues and how do you how
would you describe your your connection
to Jerry Brown he said you know friends
when you know often at dinner in the
city or do this or that I'll tell you
boy one time just one time I'd love to
see him pick up a check yeah
Jerry Brown doesn't think that stories
as funny as I do by the way but in any
case he's and he'll say I'm not really a
fiscal conservative I'm really cheap
he's very frugal and yes cheek to the
questioner that just set him apart from
a lot of progressives these days it also
sets them apart from Republicans I mean
I don't know that there's a I was right
to the questioners credit he mentioned
that that Republicans remanded not as it
has an important ring I mean this really
is their a hawk left in Washington
I don't really know if so did escape me
56:06
I mean but but Brown is I mean Brown
really boy he but he supported the
balanced budget amendment back in the
90s when that was popular he he bounced
in 16 California state budgets I mean
there's some play in that budget and
pensions are a different conversation
and so it's not he's not addressed all
issues of deficit spending but he has
you know he took a twenty six twenty
eight billion dollar budget shortfall
that Schwarzenegger left in his final
year and left with about a twenty
billion dollar surplus so that's about
you know fifty billion dollar turnaround
in California's finances that's
astonishing and that's not an accident
that is also to that partly that as it
was a willingness to support increased
taxes but it also just as importantly it
was a willingness to say no to spending
and and yeah I've covered politics a
long time and most one thing that most
politicians have in common is that kind
of reluctance and unwillingness or
desire not to say no to people it's
obviously better politics to say yes
52:08
Jerry Brown not only is capable to say no
but I think he kind of likes saying that
that comes very naturally to him and you
mentioned the UC system earlier that's a
place where sometimes saying no lesson
always wise I think but he is willing to
say no to spending and has done so and
that is definitely a hallmark of his
life in politics and initially
distinguished him from progressive
Democrats today he distinguishes them
from just about ever
greed agreed so we're almost out of time
so what I'm gonna do is kind of take two
questions and kind of mash them up
because they both relate to Biden so one
is one is a little more complicated one
simpler so one is when Brown was running
for election in 2010 one of his campaign
messages was that he'd solve the
partisan gridlock that paralyzed
California and by many accounts he did
do that successfully you talk about that
53:01
in the book you can opine on that part
and then the question is are there any
lessons here for Biden giving he's gonna
face even more drastic levels of
animosity amongst the parties and then
there's another questioner who asks
would brown accept a position in a Biden
administration what position so take
your pick amongst those yeah well as to
the divide
yes Brown was successful in recovering
their life sometimes by and he did on
some key boats recruit some Republican
support I mean the dividers were
different in California than it is
though in Washington where essentially a
50-50 divide that divides Washington in
California the Republican Party is so
marginal at this point that while it
helped Brown on occasion to pick off a
few Republican votes and to be able to
show bipartisanship behind cap and trade
for instance that governing in
California is possible only with the
slightest bit of participation of the Republican
54:03
Party that's not the case in Washington
so I can find challenge if he's elected
is much more difficult in that sense
than tried and then Brandt Jim can I can
i interject on that point yeah what
leave you know one one read that I
personally subscribe to you is that if
you went back in California history as
you know that wasn't always the case
Republicans were governors for many many
years then Along Came prop 187 very much
similar to what Trump had done Pete
Wilson kind of demonized immigrants and
and basically the end of the Republican
Party followed suit as the Latino vote
grew and and he really needed a lot of
moderates and now we have a
shrunken sort of republican party hardly
Powerforce anymore in a state word used
to really dominate do you think that
that's the playbook that's going to
unfold over the next decade this is one
of those areas in which California is
55:03
the vision of the future for sure
I don't but that future is not going to
catch up with the country in time for
Jeb I yeah I think you know the the
cycle in which white votes are dominant
is true now we're still in that cycle
and we may be in it for one or two more
but it is that historical demography of
the electorate is changing for the
nation as it already has changed for
California so that stuff I agree that
catches up with the country eventually I
don't think it will address the dis
divide in time for it to benefit Biden
but I think that is the long arc of
history on this and you know brown brown
could have chosen to govern as purely a
Democrat there are issues where it would
have been more popular for him to be
more liberal than he was he chose not to
because that's truly about who he is
I think and so in he had a luxury a
56:01
meeting to end up being good at
recruiting votes trust you out when he
needed to the second question would he
accept a position in the Trump
administration and the Biden
administration I don't know I you know I
mean that's a question but it was to him
than me I kind of doubt it I guess by
the way respondents 82 years old now
he's got to be in your 80s so he was
doing good work he's doing work he
enjoys he's living up in Colusa I I have
a hard time imagining him at this point
in his life up ruining it for Washington
I've heard I'm imagining and supporting
that too but you know he's led an
unconventional life I mean my behind
when I was writing this book he was it
it started from the premise that this
would be the first book to capture Jerry
Brown's entire public life right and so
it's in my interest that he not have
another chapter of public life but my
biggest concern
was not that he would go off and join an
administration but he would run for City
Council and Colusa you know and Williams
because he's you never know I mean his
arc has been so unconventional he might
57:07
have one more chapter in public life I
doubt that it would be in a Biden
administration but I I agree I think
it's unlikely it may be even crazy but
if he did what would what would he want
to be I would think it would be
something I mean whether that would take
Him to Interior or EPA or whatnot I don't know I
mean that I of all the things that
animate him in every conversation the
environment is this rule I I'm so I I
assume or something at you great
great
well Jim thank you so much for coming on
talking about the book maybe hold it up
for look I really recommend it again Jim
thank you so much for for doing this and
thank you everyone for listening and
watching thank you very much I
appreciate it take