In this talk, Lu will be discussing the aesthetics of Zhang Dai (1597-1689)’s essay collection Taoan mengyi (Dream Recollections of Taoan). She argues that the essays’ famous attention to sensory perception and memory can also be understand as a set of social positions, grounded in the writer’s position as master.
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good afternoon everyone
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my name is michael berry i'm the
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director of the center for chinese
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studies at ucla
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and it's my great pleasure to invite
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everyone to today's lecture
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which will feature tina lou from yale
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university
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uh here at the center for chinese
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studies normally our programming
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is during the academic year and even
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though it's summer
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since we're all in quarantine we're all
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hunkered down at home we thought we
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would try to continue some programming
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over the summer
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as a way to maintain community and bring
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people together
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moving forward we're going to be
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continuing with a variety of events
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including teach-ins artists talks
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scholarly talks
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and i think it's really important we do
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our best to try to bring people together
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during these very difficult times in
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whatever way we can
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as part of that uh at the end of the
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talk today
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i thought after i hit the record button
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and we turn off the recording
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for those who are interested since i see
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we have a lot of specialists from
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chinese studies from all around the
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country maybe even the world here
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be nice to just have a virtual hang
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session and so
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i'll just leave the zoom open a little
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bit so those people who want to
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reconnect
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and socialize can do so and so
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after the talk if you are not pressed
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for time feel free to hang around a
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little bit to speak with
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speaker and other guests but without
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further ado i want to introduce my
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colleague professor
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wu from ucla who is a specialist in late
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imperial chinese literature
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and she will be introducing our speaker
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today
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okay thank you michael and i can see
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that actually we have a larger audience
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than we normally have
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when we hold these talks at on site
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so it's kind of it's a very exciting
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occasion for me
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because i've been self-escalating for
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five months and now i'm
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kind of lying for some intellectual
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conversation and academic community
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and i feel everybody is feeling the same
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so
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um since we have a big
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international audience i think uh i i
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think
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tina used to i would do a proper
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introduction still
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um so hello everybody uh welcome to this
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room talk
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hosted by the center for chinese studies
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at ucla
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and so today our speaker is tina lu uh
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briefly
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now is colonel john tremble a professor
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of east asian languages and literatures
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at jail
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her research focuses on literature of
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the late imperial
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peer relating to china and she is author
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of numerous publications
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the major ones include persons
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roles and minds and
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also accidental
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incest video cannibalism and other
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peculiar encounters in late imperial
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chinese literature
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and also a chapter in the cambridge
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history of chinese literature
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and the co-edited volume approaches to
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teaching the story of the stone
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i should also note that her new book
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entitled
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the coin and the sievert head ownership
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and fungibility
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in 17th century china is forthcoming uh
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from a harvard east asia
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center uh the other projects
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professor lou is working on include a
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collaborative project
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on the 17th century playwright and
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painter's uae
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and also she's working on a major
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digital project called the tencent rules
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which is a collaborative
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platform for people to share
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primary sources and annotations and
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commentaries
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so today and without much ado
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uh i shall introduce the topic of tina's
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talk today and she's uh
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the topic is john that and the
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aesthetics of slavery
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so let's welcome tina thank you so much
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um so thank you michael thank you enjoy
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thank you esther
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um thank you for making this happen and
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at such short notice
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um i was born when my parents were
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students at ucla so i always think of
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ucla
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as like my fundamental home institution
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um i also just want to apologize
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in advance first for grotesque errors
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that will be
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memorialized forever um because
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because of my own failings and also
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because like all of you i've been
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without a library for five months
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but also my apologies for any hiccups
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with zoom because i'm also still a
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relative newbie
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so for years i've been working on this
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book on the thing
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in the 17th century and how different
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genres make arguments about what can be
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owned and what can't
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about fungibility and about value
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and um i was planning on writing a
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conclusion
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in the spring of 2020 and you know
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things look very different
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now than they did six months ago so what
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you're about to hear
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is a synologist version of the
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reevaluation
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and introspection that's been taking
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place all around us
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i'm very much workshopping these ideas
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and i so appreciate
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any help that you can offer so please
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feel free to
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talk to me after the talk or to email me
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so my manuscript as a whole um
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engages with karl marx's idea of
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commodity fetishism
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so namely that focusing attention
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on things is a way to hide the social
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relations
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that produce those things um
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so the phantasmagorical that he's
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talking about here
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refers to a kind of performance that
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used magic lanterns to produce
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to project fantastic images
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that 18th century european viewers
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thought were real
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now famously walter benjamin
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assigned even more power to the
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phantasmagoria
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arguing that the entire culture of
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commodity producing society could be
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seen in its whole as this elaborate
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illusion this phantasmagoria and in fact
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after chapters on ownership
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my manuscript does take on the pervasive
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17th century interest in surfaces and
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optical illusions
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so today i am talking about tawamangi
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a collection of essays by the 17th
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century writer john dae who was born
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into a wealthy shaoxing family
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these essays are reminiscences of his
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life under the ming dynasty
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before the conquest of the qing upended
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his life
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and their stylistic flair and
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gorgeousness
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have dazzled critics and leaders for
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generations
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but i want to argue that that same
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stylistic flair really demands
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consideration as a social position
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and that the engagement with the object
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world is deeply political
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so i should say that my husband read an
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earlier version of this talk
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and said nicely isn't this kind of
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obvious um and so like in some ways what
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i'm talking about today is how
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this is obvious that aestheticism of
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course
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is classism um but why couldn't i see
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this for the last 30 years
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um the short answer is that our fields
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and when i say our field i mean in the
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chinese speaking world
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and outside of it relentlessly
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identifies
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with the interests of the ruling class
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with
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slave owners rather than enslaved people
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and in fact i would say that the most
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difficult aspect
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of my engagement with 17th century texts
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has always been
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how do you take as seriously as possible
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their experience of the world
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without accepting it and in fact the way
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in which
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jondae treats a triangle of
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relationships
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the thing the self the social world
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brings into focus a whole range of
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things about 17th century society that
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modern readers don't find particularly
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palatable
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acceptance of social rank and hierarchy
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and also of course
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transacting people to perform sexual and
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other forms of labor
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now among other things this book
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is a snapshot of a social world but it
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is one to which
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we modern readers have a small and
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necessary claim
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he appeals to us because we are presumed
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to share the same aesthetic values
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as he does now in fact
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identifying with jandai's aesthetics
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lies behind much of the modern
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scholarship on john day that celebrates
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the writing
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and its evocation of a rich sensory
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world
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it's almost as if the book makes a
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proposition
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that through its descriptions of what
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was heard
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tasted and above all seen it will allow
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reader to step into jandai's shoes to
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experience
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what he did so dundai asks us to
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accept a phenomenological understanding
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of memory
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that memory is sense that dream
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and memory are synonymous
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in other words he's really presenting an
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invitation to a social interaction
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in literary settings we call this kind
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of invitation
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genre here's carolyn miller's definition
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of what genre does
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now miller's version of genre replaces
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traditional sinological understanding of
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genre that categorizes texts
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according to their languages their
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themes
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and their histories of textual
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transmission
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and instead she proposes that any text
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can be seen
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as a social compact that resolves a
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social problem
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and what is that social problem in the
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case
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these essays chande proposes to us
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are transparent reminiscences
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now it's a sign of our acceptance
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of that proposal that chandai is
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routinely classified as a mean writer
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even though his life was cut in two by
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the dynastic fall
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and the writing for which he's known was
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produced decades
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into the qing dynasty now this fact
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is not merely a matter of dating
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because we're being asked to maintain
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00:11:06,399 --> 00:11:12,000
two contradictory positions
289
00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:13,120
on the one hand he asks us to agree that
290
00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:16,480
the memories are
291
00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:17,200
records of sensation and on the other
292
00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:20,320
hand
293
00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:23,120
he can only describe this lifestyle of
294
00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:25,279
wealth and splendor under the cover of
295
00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:26,880
regrets for the past so you all know
296
00:11:25,279 --> 00:11:28,959
there's a famous preface
297
00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:31,279
that is all about how much he regrets
298
00:11:28,959 --> 00:11:34,480
all the enjoyments of the past
299
00:11:31,279 --> 00:11:37,519
so the text that once occupies a space
300
00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:39,920
of immediate presence and absence
301
00:11:37,519 --> 00:11:41,440
and the reasons we accept this proposal
302
00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:43,839
have everything to do
303
00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:45,040
with the taboos and imperatives
304
00:11:43,839 --> 00:11:47,360
imperatives
305
00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:48,320
of elite culture that dictate what a
306
00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:50,800
person can say
307
00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:52,959
and what they can't say so let's just
308
00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:56,399
recognize that we're in the terrain of
309
00:11:52,959 --> 00:11:58,399
manners when we're reading
310
00:11:56,399 --> 00:12:00,720
so let's look a little bit at this
311
00:11:58,399 --> 00:12:03,200
invitation
312
00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:04,240
this is what we agreed to when we accept
313
00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:06,639
it
314
00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:08,079
so john day writes about a famous
315
00:12:06,639 --> 00:12:11,839
nanding prostitute
316
00:12:08,079 --> 00:12:14,800
one year sin and he combines
317
00:12:11,839 --> 00:12:15,760
a stylized description of this young
318
00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:18,720
woman
319
00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:20,000
with a narrative in which she slights a
320
00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:22,639
customer
321
00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:24,880
now to borrow miller's question what
322
00:12:22,639 --> 00:12:26,800
social action is achieved by this
323
00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:29,360
aesthetic
324
00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:30,959
partly what is achieved is the silencing
325
00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:34,000
of whole spheres
326
00:12:30,959 --> 00:12:38,000
and the interiority of your sin
327
00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:40,800
so other texts close to this one in
328
00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:41,920
time approach elite courtesans very
329
00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:44,639
differently
330
00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:46,880
so this is a vernacular story very
331
00:12:44,639 --> 00:12:49,200
famous i'm sure all of you have read it
332
00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:51,839
in which the oil seller falls in love
333
00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:54,399
with the courtesan minyang
334
00:12:51,839 --> 00:12:55,360
is like christian in that she also is
335
00:12:54,399 --> 00:12:58,720
talented
336
00:12:55,360 --> 00:13:01,920
in all sorts of elite arts and she too
337
00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:03,120
is forced to consort with men she can't
338
00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:04,800
stand
339
00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:06,320
but here the reader gets a very
340
00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:09,040
different picture so
341
00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:10,160
a rich young man bhagonza who's a lot
342
00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:13,839
like the gonza
343
00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:17,519
in the ignition anecdote um
344
00:13:13,839 --> 00:13:21,040
tries to gain mignon's favor she refuses
345
00:13:17,519 --> 00:13:24,079
he and his goons drag her onto his boat
346
00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:26,800
and then humiliate her
347
00:13:24,079 --> 00:13:28,800
now nothing that happens to mania would
348
00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:30,480
have been regarded as a crime by late
349
00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:33,600
imperial courts
350
00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:35,200
nonetheless the details force us to
351
00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:38,399
sympathize with her
352
00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:40,959
and not to the rapist now in many
353
00:13:38,399 --> 00:13:40,959
respects
354
00:13:41,199 --> 00:13:46,839
hold on this is where you're gonna see
355
00:13:43,199 --> 00:13:49,519
that i'm a newbie with the whole like
356
00:13:46,839 --> 00:13:52,399
routine okay
357
00:13:49,519 --> 00:13:54,160
um now in many respects this difference
358
00:13:52,399 --> 00:13:56,720
between the vernacular story
359
00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:58,160
and the classical essay shows us a
360
00:13:56,720 --> 00:14:00,639
negative outline
361
00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:01,600
what the classical essay regards is
362
00:14:00,639 --> 00:14:04,959
unseemly
363
00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:08,560
what you shouldn't say that is
364
00:14:04,959 --> 00:14:11,920
also its ongoing power
365
00:14:08,560 --> 00:14:12,680
now jamison tells us that genres are
366
00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:15,839
literary
367
00:14:12,680 --> 00:14:17,839
institutions whose function is to
368
00:14:15,839 --> 00:14:21,360
specify the proper use
369
00:14:17,839 --> 00:14:24,000
of a particular cultural artifact
370
00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:25,199
these two texts are different social
371
00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:26,880
gatherings
372
00:14:25,199 --> 00:14:28,399
admitting different kinds of
373
00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:32,000
interactions
374
00:14:28,399 --> 00:14:35,360
so we are meant to read
375
00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:37,519
here we go we are meant to read
376
00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:39,199
shandai's description of wangensen and
377
00:14:37,519 --> 00:14:42,000
admire both her beauty
378
00:14:39,199 --> 00:14:44,320
and her ability to retain purity while
379
00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:46,880
working as a sex worker
380
00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:48,240
we are not meant to read this and ask
381
00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:51,120
whether the man who has
382
00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:53,199
paid for your sins two weeks she slept
383
00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:56,560
and ate with him for half a month
384
00:14:53,199 --> 00:14:57,760
is also raping her how frequently was he
385
00:14:56,560 --> 00:15:00,639
raping her
386
00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:01,920
did she fight the way that mignon did
387
00:15:00,639 --> 00:15:03,760
who earns the money
388
00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:05,199
that the rich young man paid to wait
389
00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:08,399
person
390
00:15:05,199 --> 00:15:10,720
such questions violate the social norms
391
00:15:08,399 --> 00:15:12,480
which ground this literary act
392
00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:14,639
so i just want you to see that these
393
00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:17,279
norms are not neutral
394
00:15:14,639 --> 00:15:18,639
they withhold flesh and agency from
395
00:15:17,279 --> 00:15:21,120
wangersen
396
00:15:18,639 --> 00:15:22,800
and in return for being admitted to
397
00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:26,320
jandai circle
398
00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:29,440
for his treating us as a fellow wealthy
399
00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:32,480
male elite of refinement and taste
400
00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:34,240
we agree to be silent on the realm of
401
00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:37,920
the material and the bodily
402
00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:40,959
except for that of sight now even across
403
00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:44,240
three and a half centuries i feel two
404
00:15:40,959 --> 00:15:46,959
conflicting things about this
405
00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:49,279
so first of all it makes me a little
406
00:15:46,959 --> 00:15:50,959
uncomfortably complicit in the rape of
407
00:15:49,279 --> 00:15:54,160
longitude
408
00:15:50,959 --> 00:15:56,639
and second of all in pointing that out
409
00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:59,040
i feel like a rude american woman
410
00:15:56,639 --> 00:16:00,639
overstepping herself in a party
411
00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:03,440
that i should be lucky to have been
412
00:16:00,639 --> 00:16:05,600
invited to in the first place
413
00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:07,759
but i think the kind of key thing here
414
00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:10,800
is i want you to see
415
00:16:07,759 --> 00:16:12,000
that jandai needs us to make this essay
416
00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:14,480
work
417
00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:17,279
when he writes with admiration about her
418
00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:20,160
refusal to speak to her purchaser
419
00:16:17,279 --> 00:16:21,040
john day transforms this exchange into
420
00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:24,560
something that he
421
00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:27,279
needs us to agree is beautiful
422
00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:28,079
in other words the reader's consent and
423
00:16:27,279 --> 00:16:30,639
approval
424
00:16:28,079 --> 00:16:34,000
is necessary and you might even say it
425
00:16:30,639 --> 00:16:36,399
stands in for your sense herself
426
00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:37,759
i think you probably also have noticed
427
00:16:36,399 --> 00:16:42,240
that jandai himself
428
00:16:37,759 --> 00:16:45,440
is hiding and someone might ask
429
00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:48,160
what was jande's own place in her life
430
00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:50,000
how has he come to know her so well was
431
00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:53,120
he one of her lovers
432
00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:56,639
did he also rape her
433
00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:59,759
these essays collectively are
434
00:16:56,639 --> 00:17:02,720
both about the transformation
435
00:16:59,759 --> 00:17:04,640
of social and economic power into
436
00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:06,799
something pleasurable
437
00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:07,679
because everything wonderful that can be
438
00:17:06,799 --> 00:17:10,640
bought
439
00:17:07,679 --> 00:17:11,520
makes its appearance in their pages but
440
00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:15,199
these essays
441
00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:18,400
also stand in for that transformation
442
00:17:15,199 --> 00:17:20,160
i'm gonna stop sharing for one moment so
443
00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:22,559
you can see my face
444
00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:23,520
um to turn money into something
445
00:17:22,559 --> 00:17:26,880
beautiful
446
00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:28,079
a 17th century man could buy art or eat
447
00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:31,200
something delicious
448
00:17:28,079 --> 00:17:33,919
or put on a play or he could write
449
00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:35,840
about the purchase of art or food or the
450
00:17:33,919 --> 00:17:37,360
putting on of a play
451
00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:39,200
and what i'm going to be talking about
452
00:17:37,360 --> 00:17:41,120
today is something that the essays
453
00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:44,720
cannot help but reveal
454
00:17:41,120 --> 00:17:48,240
which is that many and maybe all
455
00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:51,200
17th century pleasures including writing
456
00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:51,600
involved control over other people some
457
00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:53,760
of them
458
00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:56,880
impossible to enjoy outside of the
459
00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:59,600
framework of owning another human being
460
00:17:56,880 --> 00:18:02,240
and that there is no way for a reader
461
00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:05,280
even three and a half centuries later
462
00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:08,240
to separate cleanly the aesthetic
463
00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:10,559
what makes these essays beautiful from
464
00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:12,720
john day's absolute control over human
465
00:18:10,559 --> 00:18:15,039
beings purchased for his pleasure
466
00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:16,080
the aesthetic itself hinges on that
467
00:18:15,039 --> 00:18:18,000
control
468
00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:19,200
so i'm not going to be talking about the
469
00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:22,000
ways in which
470
00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:22,880
synologists all over the world continue
471
00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:26,400
to abet
472
00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:29,919
that social world but they do and
473
00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:32,799
maybe we can talk about that afterwards
474
00:18:29,919 --> 00:18:33,440
okay i'm going back to screen share hold
475
00:18:32,799 --> 00:18:36,559
on
476
00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:36,559
am i in screen share
477
00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:46,480
not yet okay hold on
478
00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:48,960
hmm i should not have done that
479
00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:48,960
hold on
480
00:18:51,679 --> 00:18:57,840
okay hold on
481
00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:05,200
see i'm not i'm not good enough at this
482
00:19:03,360 --> 00:19:07,760
yeah to like try to do anything fancy
483
00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:10,960
hold on
484
00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:14,240
am i in screen chair now yes
485
00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:14,240
great okay
486
00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:24,640
okay sorry about that
487
00:19:21,360 --> 00:19:26,240
um now one of the things that you notice
488
00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:29,840
when you read these essays
489
00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:33,840
is that gender um is particularly
490
00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:36,720
drawn to lavish tableau
491
00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:37,520
so here are two of them that admire
492
00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:41,760
spectacle
493
00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:41,760
that upends normal perception
494
00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:45,520
special effects can also be found on a
495
00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:47,919
small scale
496
00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:50,880
as in this party in sea of
497
00:19:47,919 --> 00:19:53,440
chrysanthemums
498
00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:54,240
agenda describes a carefully manicured
499
00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:57,440
garden
500
00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:59,679
with flowers grown at different tiers
501
00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:01,679
and the scene culminates in the
502
00:19:59,679 --> 00:20:04,000
stagecrafted party with
503
00:20:01,679 --> 00:20:06,480
representations and chrysanthemums no
504
00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:09,520
longer distinguished at all
505
00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:10,640
our point i think was to overwhelm the
506
00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:14,400
senses
507
00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:17,039
so that the reader the viewer
508
00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:19,280
was rendered incapable of distinguishing
509
00:20:17,039 --> 00:20:21,120
layers of representation and you can see
510
00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:22,480
that this is recapitulated in the
511
00:20:21,120 --> 00:20:25,919
classical chinese
512
00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:26,720
itself now this is how jaundi accounts
513
00:20:25,919 --> 00:20:29,760
for this
514
00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:33,760
spectacular effect
515
00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:34,799
now i suspect that if i had been at this
516
00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:38,000
party
517
00:20:34,799 --> 00:20:38,960
i would probably have accounted for this
518
00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:42,400
effect
519
00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:46,000
by gardeners um and gender's
520
00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:48,320
tripartite explanation used to certain
521
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:50,880
rhetorical imperatives
522
00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:52,000
he is the aesthete who leaves room for
523
00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:54,080
mystery and art
524
00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:55,360
but in so doing he also draws the
525
00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:58,400
curtain over
526
00:20:55,360 --> 00:21:00,720
labor so here is another version of the
527
00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:03,440
same effect
528
00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:04,240
so he describes this wonderful crab
529
00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:06,400
party
530
00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:07,840
with a parade of side dishes that
531
00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:11,120
accompany the crab
532
00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:12,480
um duck confit cow's milk yogurt wine
533
00:21:11,120 --> 00:21:15,440
soaked clams
534
00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:17,440
cabbage cooked in duck fat tangerines
535
00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:20,799
chestnuts cow drops
536
00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:21,919
um freshly harvested rice and of course
537
00:21:20,799 --> 00:21:25,840
his own famous
538
00:21:21,919 --> 00:21:28,960
no orchid tea and he summarizes the meal
539
00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:31,120
this way now
540
00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:34,080
i again would argue that there's nothing
541
00:21:31,120 --> 00:21:36,960
particularly defined about these foods
542
00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:38,320
only the labor involved in boiling crabs
543
00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:41,760
ala minutes
544
00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:44,799
and for the rest cost and labor
545
00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:46,799
and one wonders how many people's labor
546
00:21:44,799 --> 00:21:48,159
is erased and turned into something
547
00:21:46,799 --> 00:21:51,520
effortless and
548
00:21:48,159 --> 00:21:54,240
magical here a banquet for the gods
549
00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:56,480
this is part of a larger pattern an
550
00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:57,760
aficionado like jaundice finds himself
551
00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:59,840
in an odd position
552
00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:00,799
in writing about the labor involved in
553
00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:03,280
producing
554
00:22:00,799 --> 00:22:05,200
these overwhelming effects and it's
555
00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:08,240
crystallizing modifiers
556
00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:12,159
like divine and ghostly can
557
00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:14,880
and so even if laborers
558
00:22:12,159 --> 00:22:16,080
are erased their presence demands to be
559
00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:19,039
accounted for
560
00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:20,480
whether as in heavenly kitchen or the
561
00:22:19,039 --> 00:22:24,559
power of terrar
562
00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:24,559
so here is another example
563
00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:30,240
um so uh once again
564
00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:33,200
this essay suggests the complicated
565
00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:36,640
position that gender assigns to labor
566
00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:39,760
um now on the one hand
567
00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:40,720
the goal of all of these crafts and the
568
00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:42,880
essays cover
569
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:45,039
many of them they're an odd bag of
570
00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:46,480
lanterns and fireworks and stage
571
00:22:45,039 --> 00:22:49,600
productions and
572
00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:50,880
flower displays and crab dinners is to
573
00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:54,000
overpower
574
00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:57,679
explanatory mechanism you cannot
575
00:22:54,000 --> 00:23:01,120
tell anymore how this has happened
576
00:22:57,679 --> 00:23:04,080
the viewers are stunned incapable of
577
00:23:01,120 --> 00:23:05,360
understanding what they have seen on the
578
00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:07,600
other hand
579
00:23:05,360 --> 00:23:08,559
if privileged knowledge is what makes
580
00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:11,760
viewers
581
00:23:08,559 --> 00:23:13,280
writers connoisseurs the sum total of
582
00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:16,400
jandai's expertise
583
00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:19,360
is command in purchase so
584
00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:21,280
from beginning to end this essay the
585
00:23:19,360 --> 00:23:24,559
lanterns of shemetang
586
00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:25,440
concerns jandai's relationship to all
587
00:23:24,559 --> 00:23:26,960
the labor
588
00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:28,880
that he has gotten a chance to
589
00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:31,360
commission and command
590
00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:32,240
now consists partly at least of human
591
00:23:31,360 --> 00:23:35,760
beings
592
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:39,200
that he and his family have control over
593
00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:41,679
so his history with lanterns
594
00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:42,880
is also his history with labor so here
595
00:23:41,679 --> 00:23:46,480
is the beginning
596
00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:48,640
tongtou is um are figures who
597
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:50,720
recur in these essays they're
598
00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:52,880
manservants who are elderly who are
599
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:55,919
probably enslaved
600
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:58,640
so his first experience with lanterns
601
00:23:55,919 --> 00:23:59,679
takes place literally on the body of a
602
00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:02,720
bondsman
603
00:23:59,679 --> 00:24:05,600
and the essay continues in like fashion
604
00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:07,360
after explains that lanterns and
605
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:10,880
theatrical performances
606
00:24:07,360 --> 00:24:13,919
enhance each other he describes
607
00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:15,200
the naples ultra of experiences where he
608
00:24:13,919 --> 00:24:19,039
is surrounded by
609
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:21,039
his lavish lantern collection fireworks
610
00:24:19,039 --> 00:24:23,120
and the performance by his private
611
00:24:21,039 --> 00:24:25,919
acting troop or jaban
612
00:24:23,120 --> 00:24:26,720
whose members are probably owned by his
613
00:24:25,919 --> 00:24:29,360
family
614
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:30,960
and sunday here celebrates his own
615
00:24:29,360 --> 00:24:34,720
absolute artistic
616
00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:35,919
control now in between these two moments
617
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:38,080
in this essay
618
00:24:35,919 --> 00:24:40,240
he provides an enormous amount of social
619
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:42,400
context for his lantern collection
620
00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:43,840
and how many people were involved in its
621
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:46,159
creation
622
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:48,159
critics have pointed out how much dande
623
00:24:46,159 --> 00:24:50,720
knows about lanterns
624
00:24:48,159 --> 00:24:52,400
i would argue his knowledge is very
625
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:55,760
specific
626
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:56,400
so he knows what someone like shower
627
00:24:55,760 --> 00:25:00,480
dean
628
00:24:56,400 --> 00:25:01,360
does but not how so this reference to
629
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:04,559
jingle
630
00:25:01,360 --> 00:25:08,400
again um uh
631
00:25:04,559 --> 00:25:10,880
both praises and obfuscates the labor
632
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:12,159
it's fundamentally a position to be
633
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:15,279
assumed only by
634
00:25:12,159 --> 00:25:17,120
mastery over the laborer so terms like
635
00:25:15,279 --> 00:25:20,159
this denote the distance
636
00:25:17,120 --> 00:25:20,960
precise distance between slave and
637
00:25:20,159 --> 00:25:24,159
master
638
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:27,039
between command and work
639
00:25:24,159 --> 00:25:30,559
now in this essay probably more than
640
00:25:27,039 --> 00:25:32,799
anywhere else in the collection
641
00:25:30,559 --> 00:25:33,919
the construction of an all-consuming
642
00:25:32,799 --> 00:25:37,039
spectacle
643
00:25:33,919 --> 00:25:39,760
in a social world of workmen and slaves
644
00:25:37,039 --> 00:25:42,320
cannot be disaggregated
645
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:44,559
similarly the wagnerian opera the
646
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:46,559
original gazante konsteverk
647
00:25:44,559 --> 00:25:49,200
in gathering together the labor of
648
00:25:46,559 --> 00:25:52,080
hundreds to create a single effect
649
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:55,200
under the control of a single empresario
650
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:57,679
has been adored by authoritarian states
651
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:59,840
so each opera is a way of celebrating
652
00:25:57,679 --> 00:26:02,799
the subjugation of hundreds
653
00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:03,679
orchestra singers set designers lighting
654
00:26:02,799 --> 00:26:07,279
experts
655
00:26:03,679 --> 00:26:10,080
artists to a single mind again
656
00:26:07,279 --> 00:26:11,279
it was all in the arrangement of the
657
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:14,559
master
658
00:26:11,279 --> 00:26:18,080
but of course at the same time
659
00:26:14,559 --> 00:26:19,520
the real art remains elusive performed
660
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:22,480
by someone else
661
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:25,520
executed by someone else maintained by
662
00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:27,440
someone else even if no other person
663
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:30,080
could have achieved these heights
664
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:31,760
the magic always seems liable to retreat
665
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:36,400
to another layer
666
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:36,400
to turn into inhuman skill
667
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:41,600
i wonder which of these two is the
668
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:44,799
primary phenomenon
669
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:45,919
which the chicken in which the egg one
670
00:26:44,799 --> 00:26:48,480
of the collection's
671
00:26:45,919 --> 00:26:50,960
most celebrated passages concerns the
672
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:53,520
light display at the loo fiefdom
673
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:54,720
a beautifully articulated version of a
674
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:58,240
fully immersive
675
00:26:54,720 --> 00:27:00,000
aesthetic experience now perhaps the
676
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:04,000
effect that he seeks
677
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:06,080
of sensation that overpowers all context
678
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:08,159
that emerges out of the fundamental
679
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:09,840
condition of master
680
00:27:08,159 --> 00:27:12,400
of someone whose distance from the
681
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:14,720
illusion and consequent enjoyment
682
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:16,880
is precisely that which marks the
683
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:20,399
distinction and status
684
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:23,919
so he is watching while
685
00:27:20,399 --> 00:27:27,360
they work watching
686
00:27:23,919 --> 00:27:31,440
the what in the absence of the how
687
00:27:27,360 --> 00:27:34,240
is the defining experience of the master
688
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:35,520
so does the supreme ideal of art as
689
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:38,559
stunning
690
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:41,919
as defying context
691
00:27:38,559 --> 00:27:43,919
whoops as defined context arise fully
692
00:27:41,919 --> 00:27:46,840
from its production by servants
693
00:27:43,919 --> 00:27:48,720
and slaves whose labor cannot be fully
694
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:51,279
seen certainly from
695
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:53,279
our distance we cannot approach the
696
00:27:51,279 --> 00:27:54,320
aesthetic separately from its means of
697
00:27:53,279 --> 00:27:57,520
production
698
00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:58,960
they are the same so john day's
699
00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:01,760
circumstances
700
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:03,600
as esthy and owner where the two are
701
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:07,360
inseparable
702
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:09,840
are foundational to his subjectivity
703
00:28:07,360 --> 00:28:11,360
hegel famously considered how a master
704
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:13,919
and a slave
705
00:28:11,360 --> 00:28:14,799
might define themselves against each
706
00:28:13,919 --> 00:28:17,360
other
707
00:28:14,799 --> 00:28:19,600
scholars still debate whether the master
708
00:28:17,360 --> 00:28:24,080
slave dialectic should be understand
709
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:26,880
understood literally or metaphorically
710
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:28,720
is it a struggle between two people um
711
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:30,000
at a time and place where obviously
712
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:33,679
relations of servitude
713
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:36,240
were commonplace or is it a
714
00:28:33,679 --> 00:28:37,600
condition between two realms of
715
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:40,240
consciousness
716
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:42,000
the key in either case is that each
717
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:45,120
defines the other
718
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:46,799
so here's jameson again summarizing the
719
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:50,880
place of the master
720
00:28:46,799 --> 00:28:53,919
as he is constituted by the slave
721
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:57,440
and i must say i find this version
722
00:28:53,919 --> 00:29:00,320
of janda's persistent dream metaphor
723
00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:02,240
far more compelling than cophallus's
724
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:05,120
explanation of dream
725
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:06,080
as a particular and unexpectedly
726
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:09,200
powerful mode
727
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:12,799
of remembering dream
728
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:13,600
surface spectacle all of these are
729
00:29:12,799 --> 00:29:16,640
defined
730
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:19,600
against labor so this
731
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:20,799
is what happens to a subjectivity that's
732
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:23,279
defined
733
00:29:20,799 --> 00:29:24,320
by jameson's luxury of a placeless
734
00:29:23,279 --> 00:29:27,760
freedom
735
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:29,520
so in this essay uh john day takes a
736
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:32,080
long solitary trip
737
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:33,600
into a white on white snowscape it's
738
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:36,640
from 1626
739
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:40,799
in the heart of the little ice age
740
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:43,360
um and he uh goes on this excursion
741
00:29:40,799 --> 00:29:43,919
and encounters another rich gentleman
742
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:46,399
also
743
00:29:43,919 --> 00:29:48,640
enjoying a drink also having dragged a
744
00:29:46,399 --> 00:29:49,360
bun a retinue of servants into the
745
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:52,240
middle
746
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:53,520
of this snowscape this stranger from
747
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:56,799
nanjing interrupts
748
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:58,640
jandai's own perfect tableau but janda
749
00:29:56,799 --> 00:30:00,960
has done the same to him
750
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:02,799
and when the doppelganger says in the
751
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:04,399
middle of this lake how can there be
752
00:30:02,799 --> 00:30:06,960
another person
753
00:30:04,399 --> 00:30:08,480
we cannot tell whether jandai is voicing
754
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:11,120
the stranger sentiment
755
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:12,399
or the other way around because each
756
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:14,559
imagines the other
757
00:30:12,399 --> 00:30:15,760
as part of this all-white visual
758
00:30:14,559 --> 00:30:20,159
landscape
759
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:23,600
so this is what happens to the looker
760
00:30:20,159 --> 00:30:25,440
now when i return uh to
761
00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:26,880
i want you to recall the sea of
762
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:30,240
chrysanthemums
763
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:32,559
where there was tremendous pleasure in
764
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:35,520
the confusion between three-dimensional
765
00:30:32,559 --> 00:30:38,000
display and two-dimensional display
766
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:38,880
and this pattern recurs elsewhere as
767
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:42,399
well
768
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:44,480
in water margin cards jandai praises
769
00:30:42,399 --> 00:30:47,200
playing cards painted by his friend the
770
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:51,120
celebrated artist chen hong shou
771
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:51,520
and he claims that characters appear to
772
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:55,039
pop
773
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:58,720
out of the flat card now both
774
00:30:55,039 --> 00:31:01,360
flowers and cards are adjacent
775
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:03,039
to tableau that treat actual living
776
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:06,080
people this way
777
00:31:03,039 --> 00:31:07,519
as a component of visual effects so
778
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:10,640
there is a topos
779
00:31:07,519 --> 00:31:13,120
of perfect casting behind
780
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:13,760
both chrysanthemum party and water
781
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:17,279
margin
782
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:20,240
playing cards and the idea is that an
783
00:31:17,279 --> 00:31:21,120
actor might so completely resemble his
784
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:23,440
role
785
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:24,559
that he seems to pop out of a
786
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:27,760
two-dimensional
787
00:31:24,559 --> 00:31:30,799
field now of course
788
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:33,760
what differentiates perfect casting from
789
00:31:30,799 --> 00:31:36,399
a flower display
790
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:37,279
is that in the case of perfect casting
791
00:31:36,399 --> 00:31:41,120
the medium
792
00:31:37,279 --> 00:31:43,760
are actual human beings so in some ways
793
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:45,039
perfect casting foregrounds the social
794
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:47,279
gradient
795
00:31:45,039 --> 00:31:49,519
its pleasures are the pleasures of
796
00:31:47,279 --> 00:31:52,080
command and control
797
00:31:49,519 --> 00:31:56,000
so this essay is about a wealthy family
798
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:59,120
that spares no expense at casting
799
00:31:56,000 --> 00:32:00,320
and once villagers are cast and lavishly
800
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:03,039
costumed
801
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:05,840
their original identities are faced
802
00:32:03,039 --> 00:32:05,840
entirely
803
00:32:07,919 --> 00:32:14,480
the pleasure for the viewers here
804
00:32:11,519 --> 00:32:15,519
is not dissimilar to that enjoyed by the
805
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:18,159
card players
806
00:32:15,519 --> 00:32:20,480
or guests at the chrysanthemum party
807
00:32:18,159 --> 00:32:22,799
this is all about representation
808
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:25,360
and original blurred together in ways
809
00:32:22,799 --> 00:32:28,320
that are impossible to separate
810
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:29,360
in the case of casting though the impact
811
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:33,120
has to do with
812
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:33,120
total social control
813
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:37,200
now in considering zhandai's
814
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:38,000
relationship to those who perform his
815
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:40,240
labor
816
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:41,440
i've done my best to avoid relying on
817
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:43,919
the word slavery
818
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:45,440
as an explanatory mechanism other than
819
00:32:43,919 --> 00:32:47,519
cheating a little bit and using it in
820
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:48,480
the title of this paper and i recognize
821
00:32:47,519 --> 00:32:51,919
that
822
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:55,440
um partly because i know that in english
823
00:32:51,919 --> 00:32:57,600
slavery evokes first a specific economic
824
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:59,919
history
825
00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:01,760
a very distinctly transatlantic
826
00:32:59,919 --> 00:33:03,360
combination of racism and global
827
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:05,760
capitalism
828
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:08,080
but also the anglo-american political
829
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:11,279
discourse that emerged from it
830
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:14,320
in which the deployment of this word
831
00:33:11,279 --> 00:33:17,519
cannot be separated from its opposites
832
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:18,080
freedom and liberty what i want to
833
00:33:17,519 --> 00:33:21,279
stress
834
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:25,120
is that by the standards of uh
835
00:33:21,279 --> 00:33:28,559
the 17th by by our standards
836
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:31,760
no 17th century chinese person was free
837
00:33:28,559 --> 00:33:35,200
or rather almost all were available
838
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:37,519
under some circumstance to be transacted
839
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:40,240
scholars of early modern china are
840
00:33:37,519 --> 00:33:42,320
currently engaged in a heated discussion
841
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:43,679
as to how we can separate the mingan
842
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:46,080
ching practices
843
00:33:43,679 --> 00:33:48,399
of human trafficking when they were so
844
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:51,200
widespread as to be constitutive
845
00:33:48,399 --> 00:33:51,760
of all of society you know can we
846
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:54,000
consider
847
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:55,120
all women to be trafficked or subject to
848
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:57,519
trafficking
849
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:58,720
where marriage is a legitimate act of
850
00:33:57,519 --> 00:34:01,279
trafficking
851
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:03,519
um does the traditional chinese family
852
00:34:01,279 --> 00:34:04,080
mean that radical transactionality
853
00:34:03,519 --> 00:34:07,039
governed
854
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:09,040
everyone's identities what does it mean
855
00:34:07,039 --> 00:34:13,040
that people can sell themselves
856
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:15,440
and that that option was open to men
857
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:18,560
open to men because women of course were
858
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:21,839
always being transacted by others
859
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:24,879
radical transactionality permeated every
860
00:34:21,839 --> 00:34:28,079
corner of 17th century society
861
00:34:24,879 --> 00:34:31,280
and yet the genres that we read
862
00:34:28,079 --> 00:34:34,720
are governed by social compacts
863
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:37,119
that um that make the direct
864
00:34:34,720 --> 00:34:38,879
outlines of this trade in people almost
865
00:34:37,119 --> 00:34:42,560
impossible to see
866
00:34:38,879 --> 00:34:43,679
these genres themselves constitute class
867
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:46,839
identity
868
00:34:43,679 --> 00:34:49,359
they are complicit with ruling class
869
00:34:46,839 --> 00:34:52,480
interests now perhaps we're best
870
00:34:49,359 --> 00:34:55,280
off understanding 17th century slavery
871
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:58,000
in grey scale infinite shades of
872
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:59,280
hierarchy that descend down to absolute
873
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:03,920
servitude
874
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:06,720
instead of binary states so take the man
875
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:08,000
take this man who depicts julian who was
876
00:35:06,720 --> 00:35:10,960
paid handsomely
877
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:13,680
jandai tells us he lives in a world in
878
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:15,920
which some people can sell themselves
879
00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:17,440
and both his total effacement of
880
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:20,160
identity
881
00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:22,640
and its aesthetic pleasures must be
882
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:25,280
understood within that context
883
00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:28,320
and i think it's critical to understand
884
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:31,839
in these hierarchical games
885
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:35,599
that one person's loss of agency
886
00:35:31,839 --> 00:35:38,800
comes at the hands of another as far as
887
00:35:35,599 --> 00:35:39,520
agency is concerned this is a zero-sum
888
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:42,480
game
889
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:43,440
with loss directly going to another's
890
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:46,240
game
891
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:49,119
and it's also rarely a one-on-one
892
00:35:46,240 --> 00:35:49,119
relationship
893
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:52,400
the real pleasures of the tableau
894
00:35:51,599 --> 00:35:54,800
involve
895
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:57,920
not only all the other participants
896
00:35:54,800 --> 00:36:00,640
losing all vestige of self-determination
897
00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:01,520
but also on the massive scale of human
898
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:04,000
ownership
899
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:05,040
so consider again chandai's pride in his
900
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:07,119
lantern display
901
00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:09,280
at the end of this essay when he
902
00:36:07,119 --> 00:36:11,760
celebrates artistic control
903
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:13,359
far in excess of that available to an
904
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:16,480
individual
905
00:36:13,359 --> 00:36:19,520
the ratio of artist who is also
906
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:22,720
impresario who is also owner
907
00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:26,000
to those who enable the vision is
908
00:36:22,720 --> 00:36:29,280
i don't know one to twenty one to forty
909
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:32,240
one to hundreds okay
910
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:34,240
probably someone is saying but chanda is
911
00:36:32,240 --> 00:36:35,040
famous for pointing out low status
912
00:36:34,240 --> 00:36:38,160
people
913
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:40,640
what about lieutenant the popmark singer
914
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:43,440
and in fact low status people make a
915
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:45,359
number of appearances in these essays
916
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:47,920
many people have pointed out that social
917
00:36:45,359 --> 00:36:48,640
mixing is implicit in the 17th century
918
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:51,599
theater
919
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:54,000
with elite impresarios and actors who
920
00:36:51,599 --> 00:36:55,280
otherwise occupied opposite ends of the
921
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:58,800
social spectrum
922
00:36:55,280 --> 00:37:00,400
sharing the stage but let's take a look
923
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:03,680
at when jaundice actually
924
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:06,240
writes about low status people even the
925
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:06,960
most superficially egalitarian of
926
00:37:06,240 --> 00:37:09,760
gestures
927
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:12,000
is grounded on an understanding of
928
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:16,000
status
929
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:19,040
that is zero sum so elevating one person
930
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:22,160
must mean degrading another so take this
931
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:23,359
essay the point in elevating these
932
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:26,400
particular men
933
00:37:23,359 --> 00:37:29,839
is not to erase status difference
934
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:32,320
instead this essay is grounded on an
935
00:37:29,839 --> 00:37:33,920
not is not just grounded on an
936
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:37,920
understanding of hierarchy
937
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:41,359
it enacts an understanding of hierarchy
938
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:43,359
it describes it creates new boundaries
939
00:37:41,359 --> 00:37:44,560
so by citing people who debase
940
00:37:43,359 --> 00:37:46,880
themselves
941
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:48,480
the essay reconstitutes the line between
942
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:50,640
true social equals
943
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:51,599
and those who deserve their conduct
944
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:54,560
conditions
945
00:37:51,599 --> 00:37:54,560
of subservience
946
00:37:55,119 --> 00:37:58,640
but even more the case the mixing of
947
00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:02,160
status
948
00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:05,280
in this world with its extremes
949
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:07,760
of inequality is not neutral
950
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:08,320
every tableau whether artificial or
951
00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:11,119
natural
952
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:13,119
in the volume bears the marks of social
953
00:38:11,119 --> 00:38:15,520
control
954
00:38:13,119 --> 00:38:16,800
the essay unborn garden describes an
955
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:19,200
excursion to the
956
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:20,800
gardens at which elites and their social
957
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:23,760
inferiors mingle
958
00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:25,839
the first five are elites the last three
959
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:29,119
are professional entertainers
960
00:38:25,839 --> 00:38:32,400
you can imagine this one as a painting
961
00:38:29,119 --> 00:38:34,640
by again the french as an idealized
962
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:36,480
version of elite leisure
963
00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:38,160
and though an important part of the
964
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:40,320
misonsen
965
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:41,440
the performers are cast here just as
966
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:45,760
much as the man
967
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:48,960
who played julian so here as well as
968
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:50,560
elsewhere stage aesthetics permeate the
969
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:52,480
essays they set up the writer's
970
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:56,000
subjective position
971
00:38:52,480 --> 00:39:00,079
um so here we go
972
00:38:56,000 --> 00:39:03,200
um and i want to point out that
973
00:39:00,079 --> 00:39:04,800
even in essays that nominally have
974
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:08,400
nothing to do with the stage
975
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:11,119
you can see the traces of stage
976
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:13,599
aesthetics so here's one of the
977
00:39:11,119 --> 00:39:16,240
collections most famous essays which is
978
00:39:13,599 --> 00:39:20,160
about yanzhou's red light district
979
00:39:16,240 --> 00:39:22,640
and it describes a lighting effect
980
00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:23,680
the resemblance to other essays about
981
00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:27,359
lighting effects
982
00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:30,240
is not incidental moreover
983
00:39:27,359 --> 00:39:32,160
just as the spectator remains detached
984
00:39:30,240 --> 00:39:35,040
from action on stage
985
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:35,839
jannah's own position in this yanto red
986
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:38,880
light district
987
00:39:35,839 --> 00:39:41,119
remains unspoken we assume
988
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:42,079
that his neutrality means that he is a
989
00:39:41,119 --> 00:39:45,680
john
990
00:39:42,079 --> 00:39:49,599
but he does not tell us that
991
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:51,520
so this essay describes the sexual
992
00:39:49,599 --> 00:39:55,200
trafficking of young girls
993
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:56,320
in yangzhou and i want us to notice the
994
00:39:55,200 --> 00:40:00,079
way in which
995
00:39:56,320 --> 00:40:03,280
his subjectivity here is fully absorbed
996
00:40:00,079 --> 00:40:06,400
by the position of spectatorship
997
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:08,400
so seeing and commodification
998
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:11,040
are clearly closely related to one
999
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:13,200
another this is all about how the girls
1000
00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:16,319
are paraded one by one
1001
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:19,520
in front of a discerning buyer now
1002
00:40:16,319 --> 00:40:20,160
noticeably jung never places himself in
1003
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:23,119
the scene
1004
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:24,640
except as an eye exhausted by how many
1005
00:40:23,119 --> 00:40:27,920
girls there are
1006
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:30,400
so many girls
1007
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:32,400
elsewhere in chinese literature white
1008
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:35,520
faces and red shirts
1009
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:38,480
might be syntheticy for a beautiful girl
1010
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:39,200
but here their girls reduced to what can
1011
00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:42,640
be seen
1012
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:45,920
just as earlier their face hand skinned
1013
00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:48,000
eyes the lens of commodification that
1014
00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:50,480
transforms them into surface
1015
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:52,079
does not limit its impact to those who
1016
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:54,800
are seen it also
1017
00:40:52,079 --> 00:40:56,240
creates the kind of subject who
1018
00:40:54,800 --> 00:41:00,079
describes them
1019
00:40:56,240 --> 00:41:03,760
jandai himself so he continues
1020
00:41:00,079 --> 00:41:06,319
with this interesting comparison the i
1021
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:08,560
insist on treating the girl who is
1022
00:41:06,319 --> 00:41:11,200
purchased for sexual purposes
1023
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:13,839
with as much detachment as a word that
1024
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:15,520
falls apart and loses meaning
1025
00:41:13,839 --> 00:41:16,880
it's almost as if the random
1026
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:19,359
breaststrokes
1027
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:21,839
are like the bits of visual stimulus
1028
00:41:19,359 --> 00:41:25,920
that the girl herself has turned into
1029
00:41:21,839 --> 00:41:29,920
white faces red shirts brush strokes
1030
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:33,520
all stimuli alike in their eligibility
1031
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:34,400
reduced to pure eye shandai is also
1032
00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:37,680
himself
1033
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:41,119
stripped of context and involvement
1034
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:43,200
and even of interiority it's interesting
1035
00:41:41,119 --> 00:41:45,760
to note
1036
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:46,400
that uh john day's near contemporary wii
1037
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:48,160
u
1038
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:49,520
also wrote about buying a girl on
1039
00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:51,440
youngjoe um
1040
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:52,560
and he positions himself very
1041
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:54,880
differently
1042
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:58,400
so the use essay is also about how hard
1043
00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:58,400
it is to pick out the right one
1044
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:03,680
liu situates himself precisely in his
1045
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:06,800
position of the market
1046
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:09,839
accounting for his own objective remove
1047
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:12,400
so he is a lower rank hangar on
1048
00:42:09,839 --> 00:42:13,440
offering consumer wisdom to the actual
1049
00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:16,079
buyer
1050
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:17,440
so in other words he can write about his
1051
00:42:16,079 --> 00:42:20,480
lack of desire
1052
00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:21,520
because he's not buying for himself in
1053
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:25,359
contrast
1054
00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:28,720
john day places himself
1055
00:42:25,359 --> 00:42:31,760
nowhere in this scene he offers up only
1056
00:42:28,720 --> 00:42:32,960
silence in an effort in any effort to
1057
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:35,359
situate him
1058
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:37,440
so that fundamentally this scene of
1059
00:42:35,359 --> 00:42:39,760
consumers desire because you know
1060
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:40,880
why are you buying a girl if not for
1061
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:43,599
desire
1062
00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:46,240
um it's turned into an interaction that
1063
00:42:43,599 --> 00:42:48,480
is stripped of all personal stakes so
1064
00:42:46,240 --> 00:42:50,720
there's a way in which the aesthetic eye
1065
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:53,599
and the commodified girls
1066
00:42:50,720 --> 00:42:54,640
exist in a dyad they're each generating
1067
00:42:53,599 --> 00:43:00,160
each other
1068
00:42:54,640 --> 00:43:00,160
they are bits of stimulus he is and i
1069
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:06,880
whoops in reading the essay
1070
00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:08,480
in enjoying the bits of stimulus
1071
00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:11,599
revealed to us
1072
00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:13,119
we take up his position we see through
1073
00:43:11,599 --> 00:43:15,359
his eye
1074
00:43:13,119 --> 00:43:17,200
but let me consider what is closed to us
1075
00:43:15,359 --> 00:43:20,079
in the process
1076
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:22,640
we also remain in the dark about a whole
1077
00:43:20,079 --> 00:43:24,839
host of other questions
1078
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:26,640
done that are you buying this girl for
1079
00:43:24,839 --> 00:43:28,960
yourself
1080
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:30,720
which girl did you end up buying how
1081
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:31,520
many times have you bought a girl this
1082
00:43:30,720 --> 00:43:36,000
way
1083
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:37,440
did it work out well did you like her
1084
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:39,119
these are all questions that are
1085
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:42,319
foreclosed to us
1086
00:43:39,119 --> 00:43:45,839
because he is turned into this pure eye
1087
00:43:42,319 --> 00:43:48,319
but i think even worse he
1088
00:43:45,839 --> 00:43:48,880
creates this position in which neither
1089
00:43:48,319 --> 00:43:52,000
he
1090
00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:55,520
nor we can really theorize this
1091
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:57,040
action so i want to extend this
1092
00:43:55,520 --> 00:44:00,640
phenomena
1093
00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:02,880
further than the skinny horses of yanjo
1094
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:04,720
skinny horses is the only essay in the
1095
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:06,839
collection which explicitly treats
1096
00:44:04,720 --> 00:44:09,599
trafficking
1097
00:44:06,839 --> 00:44:13,440
um uh i want to think about
1098
00:44:09,599 --> 00:44:15,920
how the focus on surface is foundational
1099
00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:18,160
to 17th century aesthetics so any of you
1100
00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:21,440
who study the 17th century
1101
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:24,560
certainly have noticed it it's grounded
1102
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:27,440
in radical inequality and the stage
1103
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:28,960
so a beautiful surface focusing on the
1104
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:31,760
circus surface
1105
00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:33,440
stands in for social control beautiful
1106
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:36,560
surfaces are sometimes
1107
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:38,079
created by social control writing about
1108
00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:40,720
beautiful surfaces
1109
00:44:38,079 --> 00:44:43,359
is addressed to the class of people who
1110
00:44:40,720 --> 00:44:47,040
in their enslaving of others desire
1111
00:44:43,359 --> 00:44:49,680
social control how else can we
1112
00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:52,560
understand the status of actors
1113
00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:55,040
in the zhang family troops in which
1114
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:57,680
donde reflects on several generations of
1115
00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:59,680
his family's private drama troops
1116
00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:01,680
the essay links the aesthetics of the
1117
00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:03,760
stage and of servitude so
1118
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:05,680
he first traces the family's long
1119
00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:07,760
history of drama appreciation
1120
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:09,200
he starts with his grandfather's friends
1121
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:11,040
and social equals
1122
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:13,119
all of them holders of the changsha
1123
00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:16,640
degree and then he produces
1124
00:45:13,119 --> 00:45:18,000
this list these are the names of the
1125
00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:20,560
troops the family has
1126
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:22,800
owned as well as the actors who belong
1127
00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:25,599
to these troops
1128
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:26,800
then jumped and marvels at the passage
1129
00:45:25,599 --> 00:45:30,000
of times
1130
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:34,480
marked by the five different troops
1131
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:37,200
now from the perspective of the enslaved
1132
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:38,800
what this line actually means is that
1133
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:42,160
the individuals
1134
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:43,760
that were listed grew old they were
1135
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:46,560
disposed of
1136
00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:48,400
they died and they were replaced by
1137
00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:50,560
younger versions
1138
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:51,440
but what he presents with us here is the
1139
00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:54,480
perspective
1140
00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:56,240
of the owner which is the perspective of
1141
00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:59,680
the surface
1142
00:45:56,240 --> 00:46:02,720
where what is on stage grows old
1143
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:07,040
then young again and again
1144
00:46:02,720 --> 00:46:11,520
replaced discarded replaced
1145
00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:14,480
discarded the eye sees only surface
1146
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:16,319
creepily enough this line could almost
1147
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:20,400
cover how i consider the five
1148
00:46:16,319 --> 00:46:22,880
laptops that yale has bought for me
1149
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:24,000
sunday's explanation of how it looks to
1150
00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:26,720
the eye
1151
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:28,560
makes clear that two related aesthetics
1152
00:46:26,720 --> 00:46:32,560
are actually one
1153
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:35,200
first that of perfect casting and second
1154
00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:37,920
that of the surface the chrysanthemums
1155
00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:41,280
that fill the scope of vision
1156
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:44,480
the playing card the conclusion
1157
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:46,800
which reflects on his own aging
1158
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:47,920
takes the next step and equates
1159
00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:50,480
visuality
1160
00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:51,280
with the ownership of other humans he's
1161
00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:53,520
literally an
1162
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:53,520
eye
1163
00:46:54,640 --> 00:47:01,040
now in trying to understand their world
1164
00:46:58,079 --> 00:47:01,599
and trying to put myself in their shoes
1165
00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:05,119
i hid
1166
00:47:01,599 --> 00:47:07,680
an obstacle to us a world
1167
00:47:05,119 --> 00:47:08,880
in which human beings are trafficked and
1168
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:12,240
sold
1169
00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:15,359
is unacceptable to them
1170
00:47:12,240 --> 00:47:18,960
the opposite is true a world in which
1171
00:47:15,359 --> 00:47:22,400
other human beings were not transacted
1172
00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:25,920
is impossible to imagine owning people
1173
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:27,119
grounds everything historians like
1174
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:29,839
matthew summer
1175
00:47:27,119 --> 00:47:31,839
and joanna ronsmeyer implied that these
1176
00:47:29,839 --> 00:47:34,640
were the fundamental conditions
1177
00:47:31,839 --> 00:47:36,640
of the lady imperial family and thus of
1178
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:39,040
society as a whole
1179
00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:41,200
somewhere and ransmeyer uses sources
1180
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:43,440
that are 18th century and later
1181
00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:46,720
but the gist of their conclusions hold
1182
00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:50,160
for the 17th century
1183
00:47:46,720 --> 00:47:52,960
but of all spaces the stage
1184
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:55,040
and specifically the stage on which a
1185
00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:58,240
family troupe performed
1186
00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:59,920
was the ultimate arena for control over
1187
00:47:58,240 --> 00:48:02,240
other human beings
1188
00:47:59,920 --> 00:48:03,680
the enslaved actors are told what to
1189
00:48:02,240 --> 00:48:06,480
wear what to say
1190
00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:08,160
how to look every detail of their
1191
00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:10,960
surface controlled
1192
00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:12,000
every detail of their personal habitus
1193
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:15,200
how to talk
1194
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:18,559
how to sing how to breathe
1195
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:19,440
a display case for the way in which one
1196
00:48:18,559 --> 00:48:24,319
person
1197
00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:26,960
can take total autonomy from another
1198
00:48:24,319 --> 00:48:28,480
so one of the villains of takhashen
1199
00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:31,920
conscience play
1200
00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:32,559
peach blossom fan the real life brenda
1201
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:36,319
chen
1202
00:48:32,559 --> 00:48:38,240
here called celebrated playwright whose
1203
00:48:36,319 --> 00:48:40,400
family troops were famous
1204
00:48:38,240 --> 00:48:41,359
as a site of artistic production and
1205
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:43,440
control
1206
00:48:41,359 --> 00:48:45,839
that has probably only rarely been
1207
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:48,640
replicated in world history
1208
00:48:45,839 --> 00:48:51,200
dante praises rantachan's troops in
1209
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:55,040
these terms
1210
00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:58,160
this is total control
1211
00:48:55,040 --> 00:49:01,760
this is a valorization of owning
1212
00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:02,400
other people this turns owning other
1213
00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:05,440
people
1214
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:07,839
into something beautiful and these are
1215
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:11,119
the plays that i have been studying
1216
00:49:07,839 --> 00:49:13,040
for my entire adult life
1217
00:49:11,119 --> 00:49:15,839
you're probably pretty bored with me by
1218
00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:16,160
this point you're probably thinking that
1219
00:49:15,839 --> 00:49:18,559
if
1220
00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:20,240
essays that are about jaben or the
1221
00:49:18,559 --> 00:49:23,359
trafficking of girls
1222
00:49:20,240 --> 00:49:25,599
or flower shows bother me this much
1223
00:49:23,359 --> 00:49:26,800
i should probably just steer myself to
1224
00:49:25,599 --> 00:49:30,559
other topics
1225
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:31,920
or maybe even to other writers a longer
1226
00:49:30,559 --> 00:49:34,559
version of this paper
1227
00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:35,119
involved more of a scavenger hunt to
1228
00:49:34,559 --> 00:49:37,520
recoup
1229
00:49:35,119 --> 00:49:39,119
some identity to the scores of enslaved
1230
00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:40,400
people who leave some trees in the
1231
00:49:39,119 --> 00:49:43,599
essays
1232
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:46,319
but my point is that there is no escape
1233
00:49:43,599 --> 00:49:46,960
the charms of ta'amuni as a whole are
1234
00:49:46,319 --> 00:49:50,800
shaped
1235
00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:51,839
by radical inequality the same holds for
1236
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:55,280
the volumes
1237
00:49:51,839 --> 00:49:57,440
gender voice and i fear holds for 17th
1238
00:49:55,280 --> 00:50:00,000
century literature as a whole
1239
00:49:57,440 --> 00:50:03,119
there is no jaundice who is not an owner
1240
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:05,760
of other human beings
1241
00:50:03,119 --> 00:50:08,480
let me end with a final essay about a
1242
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:10,319
famous courtesan
1243
00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:14,800
that concludes with a beautiful scene of
1244
00:50:10,319 --> 00:50:16,480
her weeping as the sun sets behind her
1245
00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:17,839
we're invited to appreciate the
1246
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:20,079
constructed tableau
1247
00:50:17,839 --> 00:50:22,079
of an attractive woman weeping on a
1248
00:50:20,079 --> 00:50:24,160
bridge at sunset
1249
00:50:22,079 --> 00:50:25,200
even as we can understand the place of
1250
00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:27,599
neither john day
1251
00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:28,880
nor juju shen in this scene that he's
1252
00:50:27,599 --> 00:50:31,520
constructed
1253
00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:33,200
so we read this we cannot tell whether
1254
00:50:31,520 --> 00:50:34,960
she was jandai's lover
1255
00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:36,640
we cannot tell whether her tears have
1256
00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:38,240
anything to do with him
1257
00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:40,000
we cannot tell whether he was the
1258
00:50:38,240 --> 00:50:42,960
ultimate cause of the sorrow that
1259
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:45,119
killed her but that's not the worst of
1260
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:45,119
it
1261
00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:51,440
obviously we are meant to read her
1262
00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:53,839
sorrow and find it beautiful
1263
00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:56,720
and fundamentally we cannot tell whether
1264
00:50:53,839 --> 00:50:59,920
jaundice interactions with this tableau
1265
00:50:56,720 --> 00:51:01,200
arise out of his role as a fellow human
1266
00:50:59,920 --> 00:51:05,119
being
1267
00:51:01,200 --> 00:51:07,119
or as an empresario so when he writes
1268
00:51:05,119 --> 00:51:10,400
i asked her what was the matter she put
1269
00:51:07,119 --> 00:51:11,520
me off no aspect of his positionality is
1270
00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:13,839
known to us
1271
00:51:11,520 --> 00:51:15,680
whether he is relating a lover's coral
1272
00:51:13,839 --> 00:51:18,400
in which he is a participant
1273
00:51:15,680 --> 00:51:20,240
or whether he is a curator of a precious
1274
00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:21,920
scene
1275
00:51:20,240 --> 00:51:23,280
so the conditions that construct their
1276
00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:26,480
relationship
1277
00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:28,720
as a transacted person shape how we
1278
00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:31,200
and he see this scene as an
1279
00:51:28,720 --> 00:51:33,200
aesthetically appealing surface
1280
00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:34,480
but let us also recognize that these
1281
00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:37,680
circumstances
1282
00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:39,359
shape precisely what lyric prose can and
1283
00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:42,160
cannot say
1284
00:51:39,359 --> 00:51:44,559
outside of this social context there's
1285
00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:47,280
no aesthetic of the surface
1286
00:51:44,559 --> 00:51:49,200
no john day no classical language
1287
00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:51,280
vignette
1288
00:51:49,200 --> 00:51:52,400
if you are still listening i thank you
1289
00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:54,480
for your patience
1290
00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:55,680
i know that zoom talks are not easy to
1291
00:51:54,480 --> 00:51:58,720
listen to
1292
00:51:55,680 --> 00:52:00,559
and i assume that you are like me you're
1293
00:51:58,720 --> 00:52:02,800
someone with an investment
1294
00:52:00,559 --> 00:52:04,640
in this literature and in pre-modern
1295
00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:07,680
chinese culture
1296
00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:09,520
you're someone who cares i've made the
1297
00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:12,400
argument that southern drama
1298
00:52:09,520 --> 00:52:14,319
itself the pinnacle of whose performance
1299
00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:17,680
were family troops
1300
00:52:14,319 --> 00:52:18,559
is in the 17th century nothing more or
1301
00:52:17,680 --> 00:52:21,839
less
1302
00:52:18,559 --> 00:52:24,240
than the medium of slave owning
1303
00:52:21,839 --> 00:52:27,200
in other words i have yucked our
1304
00:52:24,240 --> 00:52:27,200
collective young
1305
00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:32,000
i'm gonna leave you with this i am
1306
00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:34,480
committed in my
1307
00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:35,680
practice as a reader in all the time
1308
00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:39,760
that has left me
1309
00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:43,040
to be rooter to my 17th century hosts
1310
00:52:39,760 --> 00:52:44,160
that i recognize that as a reader as a
1311
00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:47,440
teacher
1312
00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:50,800
as a modern as a woman there's
1313
00:52:47,440 --> 00:52:53,839
moral imperative to clarify our
1314
00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:54,720
critical positions that run against the
1315
00:52:53,839 --> 00:52:58,319
grain
1316
00:52:54,720 --> 00:52:59,760
of this literature itself that we have
1317
00:52:58,319 --> 00:53:04,240
to recognize that
1318
00:52:59,760 --> 00:53:07,520
enjoying this literature comes at cost
1319
00:53:04,240 --> 00:53:09,760
we are not 17th century slave holders
1320
00:53:07,520 --> 00:53:12,079
and we should be suspicious of their
1321
00:53:09,760 --> 00:53:14,640
overtures to us
1322
00:53:12,079 --> 00:53:17,040
thank you so much and i'm going to stop
1323
00:53:14,640 --> 00:53:17,040
sharing
1324
00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:21,599
thank you so much tina we really
1325
00:53:19,839 --> 00:53:23,920
appreciate you sharing your
1326
00:53:21,599 --> 00:53:25,119
thoughts and reflections and very recent
1327
00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:27,040
research with us
1328
00:53:25,119 --> 00:53:28,880
at this point i want to share turn the
1329
00:53:27,040 --> 00:53:30,960
screen back over to ingui
1330
00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:34,640
who will offer some reflections and a
1331
00:53:30,960 --> 00:53:34,640
few questions to get our discussion
1332
00:53:40,839 --> 00:53:46,240
going are we back
1333
00:53:42,640 --> 00:53:49,920
in the mode i think so
1334
00:53:46,240 --> 00:53:50,960
okay okay thank you tina for your very
1335
00:53:49,920 --> 00:53:52,960
intruding talk
1336
00:53:50,960 --> 00:53:56,319
i think it's very fresh perspective on
1337
00:53:52,960 --> 00:53:58,319
john day um
1338
00:53:56,319 --> 00:53:59,760
i'm still trying to you know putting
1339
00:53:58,319 --> 00:54:01,680
these uh different
1340
00:53:59,760 --> 00:54:03,599
uh strands of thoughts together because
1341
00:54:01,680 --> 00:54:07,119
this is very rich
1342
00:54:03,599 --> 00:54:08,079
um and i think i would take my privilege
1343
00:54:07,119 --> 00:54:10,800
as a
1344
00:54:08,079 --> 00:54:11,440
chair to ask the first question and so
1345
00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:13,599
i'm still
1346
00:54:11,440 --> 00:54:14,800
kind of wrecking trying to wrap my head
1347
00:54:13,599 --> 00:54:17,440
around this question
1348
00:54:14,800 --> 00:54:18,400
about you know these two realms of
1349
00:54:17,440 --> 00:54:21,839
consciousness
1350
00:54:18,400 --> 00:54:24,880
around the consciousness of the master
1351
00:54:21,839 --> 00:54:27,680
and writer and the consciousness
1352
00:54:24,880 --> 00:54:28,880
consciousness of this lower status
1353
00:54:27,680 --> 00:54:32,319
people that john da
1354
00:54:28,880 --> 00:54:36,880
and other authors wrote about
1355
00:54:32,319 --> 00:54:39,680
um so um you were saying
1356
00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:40,400
i am wondering how this uh you know
1357
00:54:39,680 --> 00:54:43,359
whether
1358
00:54:40,400 --> 00:54:45,760
you know how this perfect surface was
1359
00:54:43,359 --> 00:54:46,240
created and how that surface was kind of
1360
00:54:45,760 --> 00:54:49,280
a
1361
00:54:46,240 --> 00:54:51,440
very hard to penetrate um
1362
00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:52,799
in jaundice essay and also in other
1363
00:54:51,440 --> 00:54:56,240
assets of the late me
1364
00:54:52,799 --> 00:54:58,079
how was that related to the genre uh
1365
00:54:56,240 --> 00:54:59,520
in which the writer writes about in
1366
00:54:58,079 --> 00:55:02,559
other words
1367
00:54:59,520 --> 00:55:03,359
you know how is this genre specific i'm
1368
00:55:02,559 --> 00:55:06,720
having
1369
00:55:03,359 --> 00:55:07,760
uh in mind you know the vernacular
1370
00:55:06,720 --> 00:55:10,559
stories
1371
00:55:07,760 --> 00:55:11,920
uh the classical essay and also drama it
1372
00:55:10,559 --> 00:55:14,960
seems to me that
1373
00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:18,480
you know in drama uh especially uh
1374
00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:21,040
in some works of life um
1375
00:55:18,480 --> 00:55:22,400
i think he's consciously trying to
1376
00:55:21,040 --> 00:55:25,359
subvert
1377
00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:26,319
some of the you know the kind of perfect
1378
00:55:25,359 --> 00:55:30,559
surface
1379
00:55:26,319 --> 00:55:32,880
that uh in uh impenetrability that
1380
00:55:30,559 --> 00:55:34,079
you know johnny and others and even
1381
00:55:32,880 --> 00:55:36,559
himself trying to
1382
00:55:34,079 --> 00:55:38,160
you know create in his own essays
1383
00:55:36,559 --> 00:55:40,880
because in dramas we hear these
1384
00:55:38,160 --> 00:55:43,599
different kind of voices we hear them
1385
00:55:40,880 --> 00:55:44,720
you know the the literacy but also you
1386
00:55:43,599 --> 00:55:47,599
know the servants
1387
00:55:44,720 --> 00:55:50,240
the actors and actresses practice
1388
00:55:47,599 --> 00:55:54,400
prostitutes even craftsmen
1389
00:55:50,240 --> 00:55:58,079
so i wonder uh what's your take on that
1390
00:55:54,400 --> 00:55:59,760
and also uh whether you can you know
1391
00:55:58,079 --> 00:56:01,920
because we're mentioning that this is
1392
00:55:59,760 --> 00:56:03,839
talk is actually part of a longer essay
1393
00:56:01,920 --> 00:56:04,640
and it's a longer version you are trying
1394
00:56:03,839 --> 00:56:07,680
to recoup
1395
00:56:04,640 --> 00:56:10,799
some of the identity of the uh you know
1396
00:56:07,680 --> 00:56:11,839
this lower status people that you were
1397
00:56:10,799 --> 00:56:16,160
talking about so
1398
00:56:11,839 --> 00:56:19,119
whether you can elaborate on that
1399
00:56:16,160 --> 00:56:20,480
i mean i i feel like you are absolutely
1400
00:56:19,119 --> 00:56:23,119
right that um
1401
00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:23,599
a lot of this is about genre but i feel
1402
00:56:23,119 --> 00:56:27,280
like
1403
00:56:23,599 --> 00:56:29,280
the you know um so
1404
00:56:27,280 --> 00:56:30,960
also in the last few months i wrote an
1405
00:56:29,280 --> 00:56:34,640
essay for um
1406
00:56:30,960 --> 00:56:38,319
uh about um these play each one
1407
00:56:34,640 --> 00:56:41,359
um which um you know and i
1408
00:56:38,319 --> 00:56:44,400
i think like just thinking about the
1409
00:56:41,359 --> 00:56:49,440
genre of trenchi as a whole
1410
00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:53,200
where um it is a it is a genre that
1411
00:56:49,440 --> 00:56:54,960
in itself valorizes so and essentializes
1412
00:56:53,200 --> 00:56:57,839
social distinction
1413
00:56:54,960 --> 00:56:59,280
so why you know and in fact characters
1414
00:56:57,839 --> 00:57:00,960
talk about this sometimes there's that
1415
00:56:59,280 --> 00:57:01,359
famous part in tallahassee and kind of
1416
00:57:00,960 --> 00:57:03,839
like
1417
00:57:01,359 --> 00:57:05,440
you know like why am i a cho like you
1418
00:57:03,839 --> 00:57:06,960
know because you have face paint on
1419
00:57:05,440 --> 00:57:09,440
that's why you're a troll
1420
00:57:06,960 --> 00:57:11,520
um and you know so there's a way in
1421
00:57:09,440 --> 00:57:14,720
which the genre as a whole
1422
00:57:11,520 --> 00:57:18,720
um is rests on the idea
1423
00:57:14,720 --> 00:57:20,400
of social distinction so that hashem and
1424
00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:23,440
a den are always
1425
00:57:20,400 --> 00:57:25,760
elite people and they always
1426
00:57:23,440 --> 00:57:26,480
end up together in their proper social
1427
00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:28,799
position
1428
00:57:26,480 --> 00:57:32,400
even if over the course of the play they
1429
00:57:28,799 --> 00:57:34,240
were in hiding as lower status people
1430
00:57:32,400 --> 00:57:35,839
and so you know that's the kind of
1431
00:57:34,240 --> 00:57:39,119
central conceits
1432
00:57:35,839 --> 00:57:41,520
um but yet you're totally right the
1433
00:57:39,119 --> 00:57:42,240
within that there are all sorts of ways
1434
00:57:41,520 --> 00:57:46,880
to kind of
1435
00:57:42,240 --> 00:57:49,760
dig at it so um if jonathan for example
1436
00:57:46,880 --> 00:57:50,400
um you know kind of centers the action
1437
00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:54,400
on
1438
00:57:50,400 --> 00:57:55,680
lower status people um you have there is
1439
00:57:54,400 --> 00:57:59,839
no play
1440
00:57:55,680 --> 00:58:02,960
where a a cho or you know a shout then
1441
00:57:59,839 --> 00:58:06,319
is not like talking to their boss
1442
00:58:02,960 --> 00:58:06,880
in a rude way that challenges their boss
1443
00:58:06,319 --> 00:58:10,400
so
1444
00:58:06,880 --> 00:58:13,200
there's obviously within drama this real
1445
00:58:10,400 --> 00:58:14,000
um ability to see things from the
1446
00:58:13,200 --> 00:58:16,079
perspective
1447
00:58:14,000 --> 00:58:17,200
of the sub-altern and have the
1448
00:58:16,079 --> 00:58:20,000
sub-altern talk
1449
00:58:17,200 --> 00:58:20,799
back to the boss even within a larger
1450
00:58:20,000 --> 00:58:24,480
structure
1451
00:58:20,799 --> 00:58:27,599
that ends with pushing them down um
1452
00:58:24,480 --> 00:58:30,079
uh however
1453
00:58:27,599 --> 00:58:30,799
and and even john day has like you know
1454
00:58:30,079 --> 00:58:33,920
the
1455
00:58:30,799 --> 00:58:37,599
he in one of the essays about his friend
1456
00:58:33,920 --> 00:58:41,200
um panheissie and panhashi's um
1457
00:58:37,599 --> 00:58:42,000
uh wonderful job and where panhangi
1458
00:58:41,200 --> 00:58:45,200
plays
1459
00:58:42,000 --> 00:58:46,720
jin and cho rolls so like the kind of
1460
00:58:45,200 --> 00:58:50,000
crazy thing is
1461
00:58:46,720 --> 00:58:53,040
panichi was like in full control of
1462
00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:53,599
his troop while they're probably acting
1463
00:58:53,040 --> 00:58:55,280
out and
1464
00:58:53,599 --> 00:58:57,520
and they had a famously enormous
1465
00:58:55,280 --> 00:58:58,880
repertoire of like 60 plays that they
1466
00:58:57,520 --> 00:59:01,520
could put on
1467
00:58:58,880 --> 00:59:02,240
so i assume there are all these moments
1468
00:59:01,520 --> 00:59:04,799
where
1469
00:59:02,240 --> 00:59:06,640
pongichi is on stage controlling the
1470
00:59:04,799 --> 00:59:07,760
other actors while they're pretending to
1471
00:59:06,640 --> 00:59:10,240
hit him
1472
00:59:07,760 --> 00:59:11,839
and debase him and demean him because
1473
00:59:10,240 --> 00:59:15,760
that's what happens to a cho
1474
00:59:11,839 --> 00:59:17,040
on stage um so you know like in some
1475
00:59:15,760 --> 00:59:20,160
ways i feel like
1476
00:59:17,040 --> 00:59:23,119
the the the problem
1477
00:59:20,160 --> 00:59:24,559
each genre makes a different argument
1478
00:59:23,119 --> 00:59:28,160
and you're totally right
1479
00:59:24,559 --> 00:59:32,160
that liu's argument is often
1480
00:59:28,160 --> 00:59:35,440
a much more socially nuanced
1481
00:59:32,160 --> 00:59:39,200
one um both in his plays but i think
1482
00:59:35,440 --> 00:59:42,640
even in like chanting oji which is
1483
00:59:39,200 --> 00:59:45,680
very much a kind of like um
1484
00:59:42,640 --> 00:59:46,160
you know a different kind of attention
1485
00:59:45,680 --> 00:59:49,440
to
1486
00:59:46,160 --> 00:59:51,280
surfacing consumerism
1487
00:59:49,440 --> 00:59:53,200
does that answer your question at all or
1488
00:59:51,280 --> 00:59:56,880
is it just a whole like
1489
00:59:53,200 --> 00:59:59,040
uh a word blizzard well it totally makes
1490
00:59:56,880 --> 00:59:59,599
sense and also i think this conversation
1491
00:59:59,040 --> 01:00:02,079
about
1492
00:59:59,599 --> 01:00:02,880
you can be you know it can go on forever
1493
01:00:02,079 --> 01:00:06,640
but it just
1494
01:00:02,880 --> 01:00:07,520
reminds me of also leaves another play a
1495
01:00:06,640 --> 01:00:10,240
night
1496
01:00:07,520 --> 01:00:11,839
in which about the ugly man who marries
1497
01:00:10,240 --> 01:00:15,200
several women
1498
01:00:11,839 --> 01:00:16,640
and this man i think he uh
1499
01:00:15,200 --> 01:00:18,559
well he was supposed to well
1500
01:00:16,640 --> 01:00:19,520
conventionally he should be a young
1501
01:00:18,559 --> 01:00:22,480
character
1502
01:00:19,520 --> 01:00:23,359
but in that play he was said at the toe
1503
01:00:22,480 --> 01:00:26,240
he was cast
1504
01:00:23,359 --> 01:00:26,880
as a cho character whereas his servant
1505
01:00:26,240 --> 01:00:30,160
was caused
1506
01:00:26,880 --> 01:00:32,240
as a shang and you know
1507
01:00:30,160 --> 01:00:33,359
doing matchmaking and also taking his
1508
01:00:32,240 --> 01:00:35,839
place to
1509
01:00:33,359 --> 01:00:37,839
uh to meet these women so i think there
1510
01:00:35,839 --> 01:00:40,079
are you know
1511
01:00:37,839 --> 01:00:41,599
small places small ways in which you're
1512
01:00:40,079 --> 01:00:43,440
always trying to you know complicate
1513
01:00:41,599 --> 01:00:47,680
this issue
1514
01:00:43,440 --> 01:00:51,359
i mean i think that he is very aware
1515
01:00:47,680 --> 01:00:54,960
of the social norming that the genre
1516
01:00:51,359 --> 01:00:58,079
imposes um yes
1517
01:00:54,960 --> 01:00:59,920
okay i think um the floor is open to
1518
01:00:58,079 --> 01:01:03,280
questions we already have
1519
01:00:59,920 --> 01:01:06,400
several questions in the box so i will
1520
01:01:03,280 --> 01:01:09,680
just uh ask
1521
01:01:06,400 --> 01:01:12,720
them in order so the first
1522
01:01:09,680 --> 01:01:15,920
question is from matthew summer
1523
01:01:12,720 --> 01:01:17,440
massive please thank you thanks tina
1524
01:01:15,920 --> 01:01:19,760
that was great you know i already agree
1525
01:01:17,440 --> 01:01:23,520
with you on everything so
1526
01:01:19,760 --> 01:01:26,079
it's not a surprise but um so
1527
01:01:23,520 --> 01:01:27,680
i've noticed that um there is this
1528
01:01:26,079 --> 01:01:30,799
tendency
1529
01:01:27,680 --> 01:01:32,559
for scholars now thinking about topics
1530
01:01:30,799 --> 01:01:34,640
in the late imperial period to identify
1531
01:01:32,559 --> 01:01:37,520
with the elite actor the elite subject
1532
01:01:34,640 --> 01:01:38,960
and it's completely unconscious so when
1533
01:01:37,520 --> 01:01:40,400
our women's historians
1534
01:01:38,960 --> 01:01:41,839
look at polygamy they identify with the
1535
01:01:40,400 --> 01:01:43,599
main wife they never identify the
1536
01:01:41,839 --> 01:01:44,880
concubine of the maidservant
1537
01:01:43,599 --> 01:01:46,240
when people do legal history they
1538
01:01:44,880 --> 01:01:47,760
identify with the magistrate they don't
1539
01:01:46,240 --> 01:01:48,559
identify with the clerks and runners the
1540
01:01:47,760 --> 01:01:51,440
litigants
1541
01:01:48,559 --> 01:01:53,359
as it's a general tendency and and it
1542
01:01:51,440 --> 01:01:54,799
has an insidious effect i think
1543
01:01:53,359 --> 01:01:57,119
what i'd like to ask you is a very
1544
01:01:54,799 --> 01:02:00,079
obvious kind of
1545
01:01:57,119 --> 01:02:01,760
simple question why do you think it's so
1546
01:02:00,079 --> 01:02:04,319
and can you reflect back on us
1547
01:02:01,760 --> 01:02:05,440
and our subjectivity those scholars
1548
01:02:04,319 --> 01:02:08,640
working now
1549
01:02:05,440 --> 01:02:11,599
why do people looking at john dies work
1550
01:02:08,640 --> 01:02:13,520
always fail to see what you have shown
1551
01:02:11,599 --> 01:02:14,799
is really so obvious if you just look to
1552
01:02:13,520 --> 01:02:17,039
see it
1553
01:02:14,799 --> 01:02:17,920
why have so many of these authors and
1554
01:02:17,039 --> 01:02:20,160
scholars
1555
01:02:17,920 --> 01:02:22,720
failed to get that why have they been
1556
01:02:20,160 --> 01:02:25,520
seduced into liking what they read
1557
01:02:22,720 --> 01:02:26,960
when it is so obviously a beautiful
1558
01:02:25,520 --> 01:02:29,680
facade over a kind of
1559
01:02:26,960 --> 01:02:32,640
machinery of coercion and exploitation
1560
01:02:29,680 --> 01:02:32,640
thank you that's my question
1561
01:02:33,200 --> 01:02:38,880
i mean it's
1562
01:02:36,480 --> 01:02:39,760
i mean it's super complicated i also
1563
01:02:38,880 --> 01:02:43,119
feel like you know
1564
01:02:39,760 --> 01:02:44,079
like what we end up reading is the sugar
1565
01:02:43,119 --> 01:02:46,960
coating
1566
01:02:44,079 --> 01:02:48,000
um you know i wish i could see your face
1567
01:02:46,960 --> 01:02:50,160
matt it is actually
1568
01:02:48,000 --> 01:02:51,520
kind of like um disconcerting to be
1569
01:02:50,160 --> 01:02:53,920
speaking to the words m
1570
01:02:51,520 --> 01:02:53,920
summer
1571
01:02:55,920 --> 01:03:01,599
um you know i think we learned to read
1572
01:02:59,039 --> 01:03:03,599
poetry we learned to read plays we are
1573
01:03:01,599 --> 01:03:05,039
taught this language we are taught these
1574
01:03:03,599 --> 01:03:08,000
cultural impertinences
1575
01:03:05,039 --> 01:03:08,400
we get all the sugar coating and we
1576
01:03:08,000 --> 01:03:11,839
don't
1577
01:03:08,400 --> 01:03:12,480
get the other part of it which is why i
1578
01:03:11,839 --> 01:03:14,559
mean
1579
01:03:12,480 --> 01:03:16,400
except that i think there are some texts
1580
01:03:14,559 --> 01:03:17,280
like jinking may that are the other part
1581
01:03:16,400 --> 01:03:20,480
of it
1582
01:03:17,280 --> 01:03:23,280
um but you know it
1583
01:03:20,480 --> 01:03:23,920
may have to do with unfortunately our
1584
01:03:23,280 --> 01:03:27,039
position
1585
01:03:23,920 --> 01:03:30,079
as university professors as well
1586
01:03:27,039 --> 01:03:34,240
where our sub you know we may not
1587
01:03:30,079 --> 01:03:38,079
be very good allies to um
1588
01:03:34,240 --> 01:03:41,680
uh forms of justice that are important
1589
01:03:38,079 --> 01:03:42,720
um i was um in the longer version of
1590
01:03:41,680 --> 01:03:46,160
this essay i
1591
01:03:42,720 --> 01:03:48,160
cite the um translation mistakes
1592
01:03:46,160 --> 01:03:49,520
that are made by jonathan spence in his
1593
01:03:48,160 --> 01:03:53,359
recent book about
1594
01:03:49,520 --> 01:03:56,480
um john day and every one of them
1595
01:03:53,359 --> 01:03:57,039
you know i first want to say that tom
1596
01:03:56,480 --> 01:03:59,280
mungy
1597
01:03:57,039 --> 01:04:01,440
is such hard classical chinese that i'm
1598
01:03:59,280 --> 01:04:03,440
sure i have made many translations
1599
01:04:01,440 --> 01:04:05,760
mistakes in the slides that i have
1600
01:04:03,440 --> 01:04:08,799
shared so this is not to slight
1601
01:04:05,760 --> 01:04:12,640
people making mistakes in chinese um
1602
01:04:08,799 --> 01:04:16,400
but his errors are all um
1603
01:04:12,640 --> 01:04:20,480
they all shift in one way which is
1604
01:04:16,400 --> 01:04:25,200
that um so he says he calls
1605
01:04:20,480 --> 01:04:28,400
um abol in the uh
1606
01:04:25,200 --> 01:04:32,000
obsessions a song bird abol
1607
01:04:28,400 --> 01:04:34,799
is a slave boy who sings who has been
1608
01:04:32,000 --> 01:04:38,160
transacted to have sex with his friend
1609
01:04:34,799 --> 01:04:41,599
um you know i think we want to see
1610
01:04:38,160 --> 01:04:44,799
we we got this version
1611
01:04:41,599 --> 01:04:47,839
we got all the candy without the
1612
01:04:44,799 --> 01:04:51,760
horrible um sugar plantation
1613
01:04:47,839 --> 01:04:55,039
that made the sugar to make the candy um
1614
01:04:51,760 --> 01:04:56,160
and i think it is
1615
01:04:55,039 --> 01:04:58,960
i think it's actually kind of
1616
01:04:56,160 --> 01:05:02,079
responsibility as readers
1617
01:04:58,960 --> 01:05:02,960
to recognize that in so far as this
1618
01:05:02,079 --> 01:05:06,160
culture
1619
01:05:02,960 --> 01:05:09,039
is perpetu self-perpetuating and it is
1620
01:05:06,160 --> 01:05:11,280
um that you know where the candy comes
1621
01:05:09,039 --> 01:05:11,280
from
1622
01:05:14,400 --> 01:05:17,359
let me fight on
1623
01:05:17,440 --> 01:05:24,880
we have another question from rania
1624
01:05:21,039 --> 01:05:29,359
hi tina hi rania
1625
01:05:24,880 --> 01:05:31,760
yeah that that was wonderful um
1626
01:05:29,359 --> 01:05:32,480
i think i i know part of your answer to
1627
01:05:31,760 --> 01:05:37,039
this
1628
01:05:32,480 --> 01:05:39,119
but how do you tie
1629
01:05:37,039 --> 01:05:41,520
uh how do you tie everything you've been
1630
01:05:39,119 --> 01:05:42,960
talking about to the idea of loss
1631
01:05:41,520 --> 01:05:44,880
because that's the other thing everyone
1632
01:05:42,960 --> 01:05:46,799
talks about with jangdae and i i think i
1633
01:05:44,880 --> 01:05:48,559
remember you saying once that his
1634
01:05:46,799 --> 01:05:51,119
lament for the loss of the ming is that
1635
01:05:48,559 --> 01:05:54,720
he doesn't own the people he used to own
1636
01:05:51,119 --> 01:05:56,960
anymore uh so
1637
01:05:54,720 --> 01:05:58,960
what happens to the master subject
1638
01:05:56,960 --> 01:06:00,480
position
1639
01:05:58,960 --> 01:06:03,200
when you've lost a lot of those
1640
01:06:00,480 --> 01:06:03,200
beautiful things
1641
01:06:03,359 --> 01:06:10,720
it's a great question so first of all i
1642
01:06:07,760 --> 01:06:11,599
am very unsure exactly how poor he ended
1643
01:06:10,720 --> 01:06:14,400
up
1644
01:06:11,599 --> 01:06:14,880
um and so that's the kind of that's the
1645
01:06:14,400 --> 01:06:18,160
mean
1646
01:06:14,880 --> 01:06:19,280
objective answer um the unsympathetic
1647
01:06:18,160 --> 01:06:22,720
answer
1648
01:06:19,280 --> 01:06:25,039
i think they ended up less rich um
1649
01:06:22,720 --> 01:06:26,319
uh but when you were so rich that your
1650
01:06:25,039 --> 01:06:28,799
family could literally
1651
01:06:26,319 --> 01:06:29,760
light up a mountain with like land like
1652
01:06:28,799 --> 01:06:32,480
you know hand lit
1653
01:06:29,760 --> 01:06:33,599
lanterns less rich might not be that
1654
01:06:32,480 --> 01:06:37,200
much less rich
1655
01:06:33,599 --> 01:06:40,079
that's one thing the other thing is
1656
01:06:37,200 --> 01:06:40,400
i think that the only way that this can
1657
01:06:40,079 --> 01:06:43,440
be
1658
01:06:40,400 --> 01:06:46,960
written is under the perspective
1659
01:06:43,440 --> 01:06:48,880
of the past so
1660
01:06:46,960 --> 01:06:51,200
you know i think what when you're
1661
01:06:48,880 --> 01:06:54,160
reading chinese literature
1662
01:06:51,200 --> 01:06:55,760
you could almost like start marking
1663
01:06:54,160 --> 01:07:00,319
every time someone says
1664
01:06:55,760 --> 01:07:03,359
oh i'm so poor i'm poor i'm not rich um
1665
01:07:00,319 --> 01:07:04,000
and what you realize is no one is saying
1666
01:07:03,359 --> 01:07:06,480
they're rich
1667
01:07:04,000 --> 01:07:07,440
even people who are obviously so damn
1668
01:07:06,480 --> 01:07:10,240
rich
1669
01:07:07,440 --> 01:07:11,440
you know like everybody is poor so poor
1670
01:07:10,240 --> 01:07:15,359
and richer
1671
01:07:11,440 --> 01:07:17,280
rhetorical positions and to be able to
1672
01:07:15,359 --> 01:07:20,799
write about the past
1673
01:07:17,280 --> 01:07:21,920
rich is just giving you license to say
1674
01:07:20,799 --> 01:07:25,359
what you cannot say
1675
01:07:21,920 --> 01:07:27,039
about the present rich so nobody can
1676
01:07:25,359 --> 01:07:30,000
write about the present
1677
01:07:27,039 --> 01:07:31,039
like wow i am so darn rich i am really
1678
01:07:30,000 --> 01:07:32,799
really rich
1679
01:07:31,039 --> 01:07:34,240
you know those are words that can't be
1680
01:07:32,799 --> 01:07:37,440
put together
1681
01:07:34,240 --> 01:07:40,880
um so i think that's what
1682
01:07:37,440 --> 01:07:42,720
you know i could be a nicer person but
1683
01:07:40,880 --> 01:07:46,160
that is actually what the law
1684
01:07:42,720 --> 01:07:50,400
says to me it's an it's an entry way to
1685
01:07:46,160 --> 01:07:50,400
um to speaking about wealth
1686
01:07:50,960 --> 01:07:57,839
okay thank you tina uh we have uh well
1687
01:07:54,079 --> 01:07:57,839
the third question is from paul
1688
01:08:01,359 --> 01:08:07,440
hi dana hi um
1689
01:08:04,720 --> 01:08:08,799
yeah so i kind of want to just move this
1690
01:08:07,440 --> 01:08:10,640
a little bit away from
1691
01:08:08,799 --> 01:08:13,520
the synological discussion kind of
1692
01:08:10,640 --> 01:08:15,359
return to your your framing devices
1693
01:08:13,520 --> 01:08:17,279
this is something that emerged to you
1694
01:08:15,359 --> 01:08:18,080
out of the 1619 project and i think
1695
01:08:17,279 --> 01:08:20,719
that's a really
1696
01:08:18,080 --> 01:08:22,319
fascinating way to approach this because
1697
01:08:20,719 --> 01:08:24,960
i think the whole topic
1698
01:08:22,319 --> 01:08:26,480
is incredibly interesting but one of the
1699
01:08:24,960 --> 01:08:28,000
things i wonder is
1700
01:08:26,480 --> 01:08:30,880
are there things that come out of your
1701
01:08:28,000 --> 01:08:34,080
work on chiang dai that could
1702
01:08:30,880 --> 01:08:36,400
could be perhaps usefully useful or
1703
01:08:34,080 --> 01:08:37,359
interesting to say you know nicole
1704
01:08:36,400 --> 01:08:40,480
hannah jones
1705
01:08:37,359 --> 01:08:41,679
who did write the 1619 project or how
1706
01:08:40,480 --> 01:08:43,839
would you present this
1707
01:08:41,679 --> 01:08:45,600
to people who are kind of trying to
1708
01:08:43,839 --> 01:08:47,120
reframe our thinking about american
1709
01:08:45,600 --> 01:08:50,719
history
1710
01:08:47,120 --> 01:08:50,719
are there lessons for them in this
1711
01:08:51,199 --> 01:08:55,679
i mean i feel like they are like too big
1712
01:08:53,520 --> 01:09:00,719
league for people like me
1713
01:08:55,679 --> 01:09:00,719
um but and and really like
1714
01:09:02,080 --> 01:09:05,359
you know i think that there is this
1715
01:09:04,159 --> 01:09:09,359
whole
1716
01:09:05,359 --> 01:09:12,799
um early modern culture of
1717
01:09:09,359 --> 01:09:16,159
coercion and sexual exploitation
1718
01:09:12,799 --> 01:09:17,839
that is the fundament to our modern
1719
01:09:16,159 --> 01:09:19,679
world
1720
01:09:17,839 --> 01:09:22,480
and i think that's the kind of glorious
1721
01:09:19,679 --> 01:09:26,159
thing about the 1619 project
1722
01:09:22,480 --> 01:09:29,839
um i am waiting to see
1723
01:09:26,159 --> 01:09:31,520
whether like synologists
1724
01:09:29,839 --> 01:09:33,359
and maybe especially psychologists from
1725
01:09:31,520 --> 01:09:36,400
the chinese speaking world like
1726
01:09:33,359 --> 01:09:37,600
can we get the distance from our
1727
01:09:36,400 --> 01:09:41,920
materials
1728
01:09:37,600 --> 01:09:45,440
to actually see that about our materials
1729
01:09:41,920 --> 01:09:48,960
that they underlie some
1730
01:09:45,440 --> 01:09:52,319
really unpalatable mechanics
1731
01:09:48,960 --> 01:09:55,679
that are in some ways still functioning
1732
01:09:52,319 --> 01:09:59,040
um you know i think that we tend to
1733
01:09:55,679 --> 01:10:00,080
as uh matt said we tend to identify with
1734
01:09:59,040 --> 01:10:03,120
the people at the top
1735
01:10:00,080 --> 01:10:05,600
of the the totem pole um
1736
01:10:03,120 --> 01:10:06,960
but that is this kind of unspoken
1737
01:10:05,600 --> 01:10:11,040
identification that is
1738
01:10:06,960 --> 01:10:14,640
everywhere in cynological work um
1739
01:10:11,040 --> 01:10:15,040
you know it is um it it's in the people
1740
01:10:14,640 --> 01:10:17,280
who
1741
01:10:15,040 --> 01:10:18,719
kind of without very much reflection
1742
01:10:17,280 --> 01:10:22,400
talk about javen
1743
01:10:18,719 --> 01:10:24,400
as um wonderful opportunities for
1744
01:10:22,400 --> 01:10:27,840
artistic expression
1745
01:10:24,400 --> 01:10:28,640
um you know that like how do we get to a
1746
01:10:27,840 --> 01:10:32,560
point where
1747
01:10:28,640 --> 01:10:33,440
we actually can clarify our own critical
1748
01:10:32,560 --> 01:10:36,640
position
1749
01:10:33,440 --> 01:10:39,679
and see and not collude
1750
01:10:36,640 --> 01:10:41,920
um you know i mean i
1751
01:10:39,679 --> 01:10:43,280
understand that there is this need to
1752
01:10:41,920 --> 01:10:46,159
feel like
1753
01:10:43,280 --> 01:10:46,800
you know the wonderful you know i think
1754
01:10:46,159 --> 01:10:49,280
like
1755
01:10:46,800 --> 01:10:50,080
like you like so many people on this
1756
01:10:49,280 --> 01:10:54,159
call
1757
01:10:50,080 --> 01:10:56,320
um reading pre-modern chinese
1758
01:10:54,159 --> 01:10:58,560
has been some of the most pleasure i've
1759
01:10:56,320 --> 01:11:02,239
had in my whole life
1760
01:10:58,560 --> 01:11:04,400
and but i i don't want to have that
1761
01:11:02,239 --> 01:11:07,199
pleasure without
1762
01:11:04,400 --> 01:11:07,199
inspecting it
1763
01:11:09,280 --> 01:11:13,840
we have another question from sauron
1764
01:11:16,480 --> 01:11:23,360
okay hi nice my professor hi
1765
01:11:20,400 --> 01:11:24,719
yes for the first time in person but by
1766
01:11:23,360 --> 01:11:27,040
zoom
1767
01:11:24,719 --> 01:11:28,159
of course i have known your work and um
1768
01:11:27,040 --> 01:11:30,320
for a long time i
1769
01:11:28,159 --> 01:11:31,440
really like your work and thank you so
1770
01:11:30,320 --> 01:11:34,480
much for
1771
01:11:31,440 --> 01:11:36,000
such a fascinating talk um especially
1772
01:11:34,480 --> 01:11:40,239
for offering such a
1773
01:11:36,000 --> 01:11:43,440
fresh perspective on familiar materials
1774
01:11:40,239 --> 01:11:47,040
so i guess it's very important for us to
1775
01:11:43,440 --> 01:11:49,760
reflect the politics of taste and
1776
01:11:47,040 --> 01:11:50,239
aesthetics so for that i really thank
1777
01:11:49,760 --> 01:11:53,840
you
1778
01:11:50,239 --> 01:11:54,159
yeah very inspirational um i would like
1779
01:11:53,840 --> 01:11:56,960
to
1780
01:11:54,159 --> 01:11:58,560
have a quest uh ask you a question about
1781
01:11:56,960 --> 01:12:01,840
the ruling class
1782
01:11:58,560 --> 01:12:04,960
um so jongdae yeah i also cite him
1783
01:12:01,840 --> 01:12:08,480
in my uh new book um so
1784
01:12:04,960 --> 01:12:12,000
i really like him as you know
1785
01:12:08,480 --> 01:12:12,560
um independent scholar unofficial class
1786
01:12:12,000 --> 01:12:15,280
or
1787
01:12:12,560 --> 01:12:16,000
a representative the mountain man you
1788
01:12:15,280 --> 01:12:20,440
know
1789
01:12:16,000 --> 01:12:24,640
um posing against the civil service
1790
01:12:20,440 --> 01:12:27,600
examinations um so in that sense
1791
01:12:24,640 --> 01:12:29,360
i'm not sure if we could call him uh you
1792
01:12:27,600 --> 01:12:32,560
know member of the ruling class
1793
01:12:29,360 --> 01:12:36,800
maybe in cultural taste yeah um he was
1794
01:12:32,560 --> 01:12:39,920
a influencer you could say um
1795
01:12:36,800 --> 01:12:42,960
um so uh and also the slaves
1796
01:12:39,920 --> 01:12:46,800
uh were in many uh occasions
1797
01:12:42,960 --> 01:12:50,159
uh context of objects of desire
1798
01:12:46,800 --> 01:12:53,199
and uh they were empowered also
1799
01:12:50,159 --> 01:12:53,600
so i would just like you to comment on
1800
01:12:53,199 --> 01:12:57,040
that
1801
01:12:53,600 --> 01:13:00,400
thank you so much um
1802
01:12:57,040 --> 01:13:02,560
so i think when i talk about ruling
1803
01:13:00,400 --> 01:13:04,800
class
1804
01:13:02,560 --> 01:13:06,480
so one thing that i've noticed is that
1805
01:13:04,800 --> 01:13:10,400
in general people
1806
01:13:06,480 --> 01:13:12,880
are deeply aware of
1807
01:13:10,400 --> 01:13:14,080
the people right above them on a totem
1808
01:13:12,880 --> 01:13:16,640
pole
1809
01:13:14,080 --> 01:13:18,480
and i think that this goes especially
1810
01:13:16,640 --> 01:13:20,960
for academics too
1811
01:13:18,480 --> 01:13:22,159
you know i have wasted so much of my
1812
01:13:20,960 --> 01:13:24,640
life
1813
01:13:22,159 --> 01:13:27,199
thinking about deans and like hating
1814
01:13:24,640 --> 01:13:27,199
dems
1815
01:13:27,600 --> 01:13:32,640
you know and i think that we are we
1816
01:13:30,560 --> 01:13:36,000
within any hierarchy
1817
01:13:32,640 --> 01:13:37,120
that that's it's always your adjacent
1818
01:13:36,000 --> 01:13:40,000
layers
1819
01:13:37,120 --> 01:13:42,000
that are your that you see with greatest
1820
01:13:40,000 --> 01:13:43,280
clarity and usually the layer right
1821
01:13:42,000 --> 01:13:46,560
above you
1822
01:13:43,280 --> 01:13:50,640
um and i would
1823
01:13:46,560 --> 01:13:54,880
argue that from our perspective
1824
01:13:50,640 --> 01:13:58,719
virtually everyone who like you know
1825
01:13:54,880 --> 01:14:01,920
sunday is ruling class in the sense that
1826
01:13:58,719 --> 01:14:02,560
he is a descendant of a and high
1827
01:14:01,920 --> 01:14:05,120
official
1828
01:14:02,560 --> 01:14:06,560
and he's from a family that is so
1829
01:14:05,120 --> 01:14:10,640
wealthy and shouting
1830
01:14:06,560 --> 01:14:13,920
and so well known for their wealth um
1831
01:14:10,640 --> 01:14:15,360
i think that no he wasn't an official
1832
01:14:13,920 --> 01:14:18,719
yes he was a shannon
1833
01:14:15,360 --> 01:14:22,000
but that in some ways
1834
01:14:18,719 --> 01:14:24,560
is about that kind of microscopic
1835
01:14:22,000 --> 01:14:26,880
attention to social difference where
1836
01:14:24,560 --> 01:14:29,280
someone might say about me and i would
1837
01:14:26,880 --> 01:14:32,080
say oh but i'm not a dean
1838
01:14:29,280 --> 01:14:34,080
you know i'm totally powerless i'm just
1839
01:14:32,080 --> 01:14:37,440
like a normal tenured professor
1840
01:14:34,080 --> 01:14:42,159
without seeing that in the scope of like
1841
01:14:37,440 --> 01:14:45,920
american academe um i have a pretty good
1842
01:14:42,159 --> 01:14:48,480
um and so like i think that
1843
01:14:45,920 --> 01:14:49,760
when you you know because i'm thinking
1844
01:14:48,480 --> 01:14:51,440
about the youtube because of the
1845
01:14:49,760 --> 01:14:53,760
questions that we're following
1846
01:14:51,440 --> 01:14:55,600
um when you think about like shanking
1847
01:14:53,760 --> 01:14:58,719
with you for example
1848
01:14:55,600 --> 01:15:00,880
um he is so clear that he's not rich
1849
01:14:58,719 --> 01:15:02,239
no no no i'm not rich i'm so not rich
1850
01:15:00,880 --> 01:15:04,880
i'm so poor
1851
01:15:02,239 --> 01:15:07,199
um but then like the ways that he
1852
01:15:04,880 --> 01:15:09,360
describes the poor
1853
01:15:07,199 --> 01:15:10,400
it's clear that even then they are what
1854
01:15:09,360 --> 01:15:13,679
we would consider
1855
01:15:10,400 --> 01:15:16,159
like middle class
1856
01:15:13,679 --> 01:15:18,400
you know like he doesn't give
1857
01:15:16,159 --> 01:15:22,640
subjectivity or agency
1858
01:15:18,400 --> 01:15:26,640
to the lord only knows what percentage
1859
01:15:22,640 --> 01:15:29,600
of 17th century society that were
1860
01:15:26,640 --> 01:15:30,560
actually had no disposable income that
1861
01:15:29,600 --> 01:15:33,600
actually
1862
01:15:30,560 --> 01:15:37,760
might have to sell a child to buy
1863
01:15:33,600 --> 01:15:42,080
food etc etc etc and so i feel like
1864
01:15:37,760 --> 01:15:45,520
you know um probably ruling class is too
1865
01:15:42,080 --> 01:15:47,840
blunt in instruments but i do think that
1866
01:15:45,520 --> 01:15:51,520
the kind of the idea that
1867
01:15:47,840 --> 01:15:54,880
we imagine pre-modern china
1868
01:15:51,520 --> 01:15:57,199
and we imagine its pleasures
1869
01:15:54,880 --> 01:15:59,280
and the people who enjoyed those
1870
01:15:57,199 --> 01:16:01,520
pleasures
1871
01:15:59,280 --> 01:16:02,880
to call that ruling class is probably
1872
01:16:01,520 --> 01:16:06,880
not
1873
01:16:02,880 --> 01:16:07,600
that inaccurate um so that's the first
1874
01:16:06,880 --> 01:16:10,400
thing
1875
01:16:07,600 --> 01:16:10,719
the second thing is what about the power
1876
01:16:10,400 --> 01:16:15,199
that
1877
01:16:10,719 --> 01:16:15,199
certain enslaved people had
1878
01:16:16,640 --> 01:16:24,640
i'm gonna argue that um
1879
01:16:21,199 --> 01:16:27,120
that's almost like um
1880
01:16:24,640 --> 01:16:28,239
and this is again to draw on the 1619
1881
01:16:27,120 --> 01:16:30,400
project
1882
01:16:28,239 --> 01:16:32,560
it's almost like like reading
1883
01:16:30,400 --> 01:16:36,159
reconstruction materials
1884
01:16:32,560 --> 01:16:38,880
and having sympathy for southerners who
1885
01:16:36,159 --> 01:16:39,199
were so upset that all of a sudden
1886
01:16:38,880 --> 01:16:43,600
they're
1887
01:16:39,199 --> 01:16:46,719
like these these uppity former slaves
1888
01:16:43,600 --> 01:16:48,320
um you know i i think that the power
1889
01:16:46,719 --> 01:16:50,880
that they have so
1890
01:16:48,320 --> 01:16:51,440
let me just go back to chief jean-pierre
1891
01:16:50,880 --> 01:16:54,560
the
1892
01:16:51,440 --> 01:16:57,679
chisholm's obsessions um where
1893
01:16:54,560 --> 01:17:00,400
he writes john that writes about abba
1894
01:16:57,679 --> 01:17:02,400
um who his friend chijano has purchased
1895
01:17:00,400 --> 01:17:05,199
to be a sexual partner
1896
01:17:02,400 --> 01:17:05,679
and and then chi-chi-chan actually runs
1897
01:17:05,199 --> 01:17:08,880
off
1898
01:17:05,679 --> 01:17:12,159
with abba um
1899
01:17:08,880 --> 01:17:16,159
alba is not powerful you know
1900
01:17:12,159 --> 01:17:19,840
um and it is
1901
01:17:16,159 --> 01:17:23,679
part of the way of
1902
01:17:19,840 --> 01:17:26,159
reading and seeing through
1903
01:17:23,679 --> 01:17:27,120
or through john died that we would say
1904
01:17:26,159 --> 01:17:29,199
oh but
1905
01:17:27,120 --> 01:17:30,159
about unlike the tongue toe that are
1906
01:17:29,199 --> 01:17:33,199
carrying him around
1907
01:17:30,159 --> 01:17:36,000
actually has a name um
1908
01:17:33,199 --> 01:17:38,560
you know i think that what we're talking
1909
01:17:36,000 --> 01:17:42,400
about is a society that is
1910
01:17:38,560 --> 01:17:45,600
so unequal
1911
01:17:42,400 --> 01:17:46,400
that we can barely conceive of it and in
1912
01:17:45,600 --> 01:17:49,040
the
1913
01:17:46,400 --> 01:17:50,800
um scavenger hunt version of this paper
1914
01:17:49,040 --> 01:17:51,600
i actually kind of try to go through
1915
01:17:50,800 --> 01:17:53,679
some of the
1916
01:17:51,600 --> 01:17:55,520
essays and try to figure out like how
1917
01:17:53,679 --> 01:17:57,040
many people did he drag out to the
1918
01:17:55,520 --> 01:17:58,880
middle of this lake
1919
01:17:57,040 --> 01:18:01,040
because they're you know when they're
1920
01:17:58,880 --> 01:18:01,600
having wine somebody is carrying the
1921
01:18:01,040 --> 01:18:05,120
wood
1922
01:18:01,600 --> 01:18:06,000
to heat up to light the fire to heat the
1923
01:18:05,120 --> 01:18:08,560
wine
1924
01:18:06,000 --> 01:18:11,040
somebody is bringing along the someone
1925
01:18:08,560 --> 01:18:13,440
cook the food
1926
01:18:11,040 --> 01:18:14,400
uh there's somebody who's driving the
1927
01:18:13,440 --> 01:18:17,679
boat
1928
01:18:14,400 --> 01:18:20,800
um all none of whom are
1929
01:18:17,679 --> 01:18:24,080
named all of whom are rendered
1930
01:18:20,800 --> 01:18:27,360
invisible by this surface and
1931
01:18:24,080 --> 01:18:30,560
it's very hard for me to see like a
1932
01:18:27,360 --> 01:18:33,920
a built-in king or an abba
1933
01:18:30,560 --> 01:18:37,199
as a kind of example of an empowered
1934
01:18:33,920 --> 01:18:38,000
enslaved person what about the case
1935
01:18:37,199 --> 01:18:40,880
discussed
1936
01:18:38,000 --> 01:18:41,360
by sophie wolf and jio ching and the
1937
01:18:40,880 --> 01:18:45,199
channel
1938
01:18:41,360 --> 01:18:49,840
song you know the male actor gyotin
1939
01:18:45,199 --> 01:18:49,840
kind of as desire
1940
01:18:50,239 --> 01:18:57,360
powerful elite
1941
01:18:53,280 --> 01:19:00,400
i mean so i think like these
1942
01:18:57,360 --> 01:19:02,239
kind of young male actors are
1943
01:19:00,400 --> 01:19:04,000
as powerful as you can get as an
1944
01:19:02,239 --> 01:19:08,320
enslaved person
1945
01:19:04,000 --> 01:19:11,840
um they're still being transacted
1946
01:19:08,320 --> 01:19:14,800
um you know it's just like
1947
01:19:11,840 --> 01:19:16,400
um you know that in the kind of grand
1948
01:19:14,800 --> 01:19:19,880
scheme of the way that
1949
01:19:16,400 --> 01:19:23,199
that power is being distributed in that
1950
01:19:19,880 --> 01:19:26,960
society um
1951
01:19:23,199 --> 01:19:29,679
that is not a life i i i'm very glad to
1952
01:19:26,960 --> 01:19:30,560
in in the kind of like i'm very glad to
1953
01:19:29,679 --> 01:19:34,640
have been born
1954
01:19:30,560 --> 01:19:34,640
into my positionality rather than that
1955
01:19:34,840 --> 01:19:40,239
one
1956
01:19:37,280 --> 01:19:40,239
thank you so much
1957
01:19:40,960 --> 01:19:44,880
okay so we have uh two questions and a
1958
01:19:44,320 --> 01:19:48,000
comment
1959
01:19:44,880 --> 01:19:51,360
waiting the box so michael suggests that
1960
01:19:48,000 --> 01:19:53,360
we will latina answer these questions
1961
01:19:51,360 --> 01:19:56,080
and after that we will
1962
01:19:53,360 --> 01:19:56,960
wind down the formal q a session but we
1963
01:19:56,080 --> 01:19:59,199
will still
1964
01:19:56,960 --> 01:20:00,000
welcome everybody to stay and hang
1965
01:19:59,199 --> 01:20:03,120
around and
1966
01:20:00,000 --> 01:20:07,040
you know talk and so um first
1967
01:20:03,120 --> 01:20:07,040
um matthew has a comment
1968
01:20:07,120 --> 01:20:10,080
thank you yes just briefly um this is
1969
01:20:08,880 --> 01:20:12,320
sort of an obvious thing to point out
1970
01:20:10,080 --> 01:20:14,239
but in regard to paul's question
1971
01:20:12,320 --> 01:20:15,840
i think the the american analogy to the
1972
01:20:14,239 --> 01:20:16,880
kind of nostalgia you see in zhang dai
1973
01:20:15,840 --> 01:20:19,120
would be
1974
01:20:16,880 --> 01:20:20,400
the lost cause mythology about the old
1975
01:20:19,120 --> 01:20:23,520
south this sort of
1976
01:20:20,400 --> 01:20:25,679
um glorification this nostalgia
1977
01:20:23,520 --> 01:20:27,840
celebration of the old south
1978
01:20:25,679 --> 01:20:29,679
which is based on a very explicit denial
1979
01:20:27,840 --> 01:20:32,000
of the reality of slavery
1980
01:20:29,679 --> 01:20:32,960
and if you can imagine i don't know if
1981
01:20:32,000 --> 01:20:36,000
thomas jefferson
1982
01:20:32,960 --> 01:20:36,719
old age had written a poem or an essay
1983
01:20:36,000 --> 01:20:39,120
about
1984
01:20:36,719 --> 01:20:40,639
how beautiful sally hemmings was and we
1985
01:20:39,120 --> 01:20:43,600
were all expected to read that
1986
01:20:40,639 --> 01:20:44,960
and sort of enjoy her beauty as
1987
01:20:43,600 --> 01:20:47,679
transposed through
1988
01:20:44,960 --> 01:20:49,120
jefferson's wonderful prose that would
1989
01:20:47,679 --> 01:20:50,880
be sort of like
1990
01:20:49,120 --> 01:20:52,480
the text that you showed us i think tina
1991
01:20:50,880 --> 01:20:54,239
so if there's an american analogy
1992
01:20:52,480 --> 01:20:55,679
so in other words perhaps this would be
1993
01:20:54,239 --> 01:20:58,159
a strategy for
1994
01:20:55,679 --> 01:20:59,360
shining that light back on the chinese
1995
01:20:58,159 --> 01:21:00,960
context in order to make it more
1996
01:20:59,360 --> 01:21:01,440
comprehensible to an american student
1997
01:21:00,960 --> 01:21:02,719
audience
1998
01:21:01,440 --> 01:21:06,000
but i think it's kind of an obvious
1999
01:21:02,719 --> 01:21:06,000
point thank you i'm done
2000
01:21:07,280 --> 01:21:14,080
tina would you like to respond no
2001
01:21:10,560 --> 01:21:17,199
i just i agree with matt
2002
01:21:14,080 --> 01:21:19,920
well we have two more questions
2003
01:21:17,199 --> 01:21:20,320
from ariel and lin hong so we will just
2004
01:21:19,920 --> 01:21:22,800
let
2005
01:21:20,320 --> 01:21:25,600
uh everyone ninja ask the questions so
2006
01:21:22,800 --> 01:21:29,920
we collect those questions and then
2007
01:21:25,600 --> 01:21:32,000
tina can respond so first area go ahead
2008
01:21:29,920 --> 01:21:33,120
thanks so much and thank you tina uh
2009
01:21:32,000 --> 01:21:35,679
such a really
2010
01:21:33,120 --> 01:21:36,800
wonderful and interesting talk um i
2011
01:21:35,679 --> 01:21:38,880
really appreciate
2012
01:21:36,800 --> 01:21:40,639
this uh attention to what you call like
2013
01:21:38,880 --> 01:21:43,120
the unspoken identification of
2014
01:21:40,639 --> 01:21:45,040
sinologists with the cultural elite
2015
01:21:43,120 --> 01:21:46,880
um often i find this to be not even
2016
01:21:45,040 --> 01:21:47,679
really unspoken i mean it's something
2017
01:21:46,880 --> 01:21:51,120
that
2018
01:21:47,679 --> 01:21:51,440
is often articulated or sort of embodied
2019
01:21:51,120 --> 01:21:53,679
or
2020
01:21:51,440 --> 01:21:55,120
or lived i see a lot of scholars of lead
2021
01:21:53,679 --> 01:21:56,000
imperial china and i'm sure i'm not
2022
01:21:55,120 --> 01:21:58,080
immune from this
2023
01:21:56,000 --> 01:22:00,080
essentially cosplaying right it's like
2024
01:21:58,080 --> 01:22:00,880
lead imperial elite right like drinking
2025
01:22:00,080 --> 01:22:03,360
the tea
2026
01:22:00,880 --> 01:22:05,280
playing the gucci and like the sort of
2027
01:22:03,360 --> 01:22:07,280
aesthetic embodiment of
2028
01:22:05,280 --> 01:22:08,960
of this you know incredibly sort of
2029
01:22:07,280 --> 01:22:10,880
problematic role
2030
01:22:08,960 --> 01:22:12,320
um and i'm wondering and i think you
2031
01:22:10,880 --> 01:22:13,679
could have talked about this in answers
2032
01:22:12,320 --> 01:22:14,560
to other questions this might be a bit
2033
01:22:13,679 --> 01:22:17,840
repetitive
2034
01:22:14,560 --> 01:22:21,600
but do you think it's possible
2035
01:22:17,840 --> 01:22:23,120
um you know to get beyond this without
2036
01:22:21,600 --> 01:22:25,199
a transformation in the modes of
2037
01:22:23,120 --> 01:22:25,600
academic production i mean considering
2038
01:22:25,199 --> 01:22:27,840
the
2039
01:22:25,600 --> 01:22:28,960
the way that our our work is really
2040
01:22:27,840 --> 01:22:31,760
complicit with
2041
01:22:28,960 --> 01:22:33,679
facing the labor of others right um is
2042
01:22:31,760 --> 01:22:35,920
there anything in our own practices
2043
01:22:33,679 --> 01:22:36,880
that can be like specifically
2044
01:22:35,920 --> 01:22:39,440
transformed
2045
01:22:36,880 --> 01:22:40,880
or is is it just sort of like we kind of
2046
01:22:39,440 --> 01:22:43,920
carve out spaces or
2047
01:22:40,880 --> 01:22:45,440
moments of introspection or scavenge or
2048
01:22:43,920 --> 01:22:46,719
hunt that sort of thing like do you see
2049
01:22:45,440 --> 01:22:49,040
there being
2050
01:22:46,719 --> 01:22:50,800
um a more kind of fundamental
2051
01:22:49,040 --> 01:22:54,000
transformation
2052
01:22:50,800 --> 01:22:56,639
in the academy yeah
2053
01:22:54,000 --> 01:22:57,120
that is such a great question i mean i
2054
01:22:56,639 --> 01:23:00,719
guess
2055
01:22:57,120 --> 01:23:03,679
like one of the things is i'm i'm i'm
2056
01:23:00,719 --> 01:23:04,880
i wonder whether the old mode of
2057
01:23:03,679 --> 01:23:08,480
academic
2058
01:23:04,880 --> 01:23:09,600
writing is like how long it is for this
2059
01:23:08,480 --> 01:23:14,080
earth
2060
01:23:09,600 --> 01:23:17,440
um you know it is it is so hierarchical
2061
01:23:14,080 --> 01:23:20,719
and it may not it may not work
2062
01:23:17,440 --> 01:23:24,159
now um but i also feel like for
2063
01:23:20,719 --> 01:23:27,040
us you know us meaning
2064
01:23:24,159 --> 01:23:29,520
um english language synologists there's
2065
01:23:27,040 --> 01:23:33,280
this whole question of like
2066
01:23:29,520 --> 01:23:34,480
how do we how do we make scholarship
2067
01:23:33,280 --> 01:23:38,400
that is authentic
2068
01:23:34,480 --> 01:23:39,280
to us and contributes to a world in
2069
01:23:38,400 --> 01:23:41,120
which
2070
01:23:39,280 --> 01:23:43,360
99 percent of the synological
2071
01:23:41,120 --> 01:23:46,480
scholarship is in chinese
2072
01:23:43,360 --> 01:23:49,120
um like what are we saying
2073
01:23:46,480 --> 01:23:51,120
that is easier to say in english than it
2074
01:23:49,120 --> 01:23:53,360
is to say in chinese
2075
01:23:51,120 --> 01:23:54,880
and i think you know and i've been
2076
01:23:53,360 --> 01:23:56,159
writing about this and thinking about
2077
01:23:54,880 --> 01:23:58,960
this
2078
01:23:56,159 --> 01:24:00,560
clearly there are ways in which this
2079
01:23:58,960 --> 01:24:02,320
talk that i just gave
2080
01:24:00,560 --> 01:24:04,560
would have been very very hard to
2081
01:24:02,320 --> 01:24:07,840
articulate in chinese
2082
01:24:04,560 --> 01:24:09,600
you know like um that it's much easier
2083
01:24:07,840 --> 01:24:11,280
to create that distance when that
2084
01:24:09,600 --> 01:24:13,600
distance is real
2085
01:24:11,280 --> 01:24:14,880
um and to you know i think it's
2086
01:24:13,600 --> 01:24:17,600
important for us
2087
01:24:14,880 --> 01:24:18,080
to celebrate that distance and to say
2088
01:24:17,600 --> 01:24:21,760
like
2089
01:24:18,080 --> 01:24:24,159
you know um i would not have fit in
2090
01:24:21,760 --> 01:24:25,920
in a 17th century party except as
2091
01:24:24,159 --> 01:24:29,199
somebody washing dishes
2092
01:24:25,920 --> 01:24:30,960
um you know like lord how much of my
2093
01:24:29,199 --> 01:24:31,600
life have i spent washing dishes but
2094
01:24:30,960 --> 01:24:34,159
anyway
2095
01:24:31,600 --> 01:24:35,840
like you know like accepted someone
2096
01:24:34,159 --> 01:24:39,199
doing menial work
2097
01:24:35,840 --> 01:24:41,920
i would not have fit in and let me
2098
01:24:39,199 --> 01:24:45,440
actually embrace that for a moment
2099
01:24:41,920 --> 01:24:47,679
um let me not apologize for that
2100
01:24:45,440 --> 01:24:49,679
um because i think we still are in this
2101
01:24:47,679 --> 01:24:50,800
mode of kind of apologizing for that
2102
01:24:49,679 --> 01:24:53,760
distance
2103
01:24:50,800 --> 01:24:55,199
so not not a total answer but i think
2104
01:24:53,760 --> 01:24:59,280
you're totally right to be thinking
2105
01:24:55,199 --> 01:25:03,040
about the forms of scholarship too
2106
01:24:59,280 --> 01:25:06,639
lehon are you there
2107
01:25:03,040 --> 01:25:11,520
are you there linhong yeah hi lee hon
2108
01:25:06,639 --> 01:25:15,760
hi how are you
2109
01:25:11,520 --> 01:25:19,120
yeah i i really enjoy uh the talk and uh
2110
01:25:15,760 --> 01:25:28,239
as if i i listened to a whole book
2111
01:25:19,120 --> 01:25:28,719
uh title yeah to alarm to to acknowledge
2112
01:25:28,239 --> 01:25:32,560
the
2113
01:25:28,719 --> 01:25:33,520
world yeah so um and uh it's fascinating
2114
01:25:32,560 --> 01:25:37,199
and and
2115
01:25:33,520 --> 01:25:40,800
awakening and um my my question
2116
01:25:37,199 --> 01:25:44,719
uh would be about um
2117
01:25:40,800 --> 01:25:48,000
how to uh make
2118
01:25:44,719 --> 01:25:52,320
or animate uh this uh
2119
01:25:48,000 --> 01:25:55,360
dichotomy between master and slave
2120
01:25:52,320 --> 01:25:59,199
in a hegelian spirit maybe
2121
01:25:55,360 --> 01:26:02,560
because it seems uh uh
2122
01:25:59,199 --> 01:26:05,600
we we kind of uh lock the two
2123
01:26:02,560 --> 01:26:08,719
sides up uh on the opposite
2124
01:26:05,600 --> 01:26:12,080
poles and uh what is
2125
01:26:08,719 --> 01:26:15,360
one thing is the motion right and and
2126
01:26:12,080 --> 01:26:17,520
and that is very vital even to
2127
01:26:15,360 --> 01:26:18,800
readers to students to teachers because
2128
01:26:17,520 --> 01:26:22,159
we want to get out
2129
01:26:18,800 --> 01:26:24,800
of this right uh did this uh
2130
01:26:22,159 --> 01:26:25,679
uh social ball right that traps
2131
01:26:24,800 --> 01:26:29,360
everybody
2132
01:26:25,679 --> 01:26:32,560
in a certain position and um
2133
01:26:29,360 --> 01:26:35,199
so i maybe i want to listen to you more
2134
01:26:32,560 --> 01:26:36,719
about the the position of the things
2135
01:26:35,199 --> 01:26:39,840
right that is
2136
01:26:36,719 --> 01:26:40,560
what your upcoming book right is uh
2137
01:26:39,840 --> 01:26:43,920
focusing
2138
01:26:40,560 --> 01:26:48,000
on and it's not just the aesthetic
2139
01:26:43,920 --> 01:26:50,480
object uh um
2140
01:26:48,000 --> 01:26:51,360
appreciated by under the gates of the
2141
01:26:50,480 --> 01:26:54,480
master
2142
01:26:51,360 --> 01:26:56,800
but is also the material word on right
2143
01:26:54,480 --> 01:27:00,400
uh by the servants
2144
01:26:56,800 --> 01:27:01,760
and uh maybe i i want to go back to your
2145
01:27:00,400 --> 01:27:05,840
reading of that uh
2146
01:27:01,760 --> 01:27:05,840
jugung right uh
2147
01:27:12,390 --> 01:27:15,439
[Music]
2148
01:27:15,600 --> 01:27:23,120
your reading against the grain says
2149
01:27:18,800 --> 01:27:26,159
uh uh let us know that uh
2150
01:27:23,120 --> 01:27:28,320
um serending is not celebrating
2151
01:27:26,159 --> 01:27:29,679
the lower people because he actually
2152
01:27:28,320 --> 01:27:33,199
condemns them
2153
01:27:29,679 --> 01:27:36,719
as a lowering lowering themselves by
2154
01:27:33,199 --> 01:27:36,719
humiliating themselves right
2155
01:27:37,280 --> 01:27:42,800
right and um but uh i i would read
2156
01:27:40,560 --> 01:27:47,120
that same passage as because it's not a
2157
01:27:42,800 --> 01:27:50,159
citizen but it is
2158
01:27:47,120 --> 01:27:53,920
the object is not cells
2159
01:27:50,159 --> 01:27:57,840
themselves but rather
2160
01:27:53,920 --> 01:28:01,120
the things so it's just people
2161
01:27:57,840 --> 01:28:04,480
right uh of their own court
2162
01:28:01,120 --> 01:28:08,159
or of their own accord are lowers
2163
01:28:04,480 --> 01:28:10,080
or humiliate the things right
2164
01:28:08,159 --> 01:28:12,080
that means if you don't pay attention
2165
01:28:10,080 --> 01:28:15,120
you don't value if you
2166
01:28:12,080 --> 01:28:18,159
you fail to work on things
2167
01:28:15,120 --> 01:28:21,840
then you can never really
2168
01:28:18,159 --> 01:28:24,159
raise yourself right right so so because
2169
01:28:21,840 --> 01:28:25,120
things have the potential to to raise
2170
01:28:24,159 --> 01:28:29,040
people
2171
01:28:25,120 --> 01:28:31,280
right uh to another level right socially
2172
01:28:29,040 --> 01:28:33,040
especially in this passage so i wonder
2173
01:28:31,280 --> 01:28:37,199
if this is a
2174
01:28:33,040 --> 01:28:40,239
moment of redemption for us to think
2175
01:28:37,199 --> 01:28:43,360
in this triangle of things
2176
01:28:40,239 --> 01:28:46,480
by servant and and and master
2177
01:28:43,360 --> 01:28:49,520
actually that those three things
2178
01:28:46,480 --> 01:28:52,639
are all in hegelian
2179
01:28:49,520 --> 01:28:55,679
discussion right of the master and slave
2180
01:28:52,639 --> 01:28:59,679
uh uh dicot
2181
01:28:55,679 --> 01:29:02,560
diabetics masters just consume
2182
01:28:59,679 --> 01:29:03,199
things right the master of just consumes
2183
01:29:02,560 --> 01:29:07,360
things
2184
01:29:03,199 --> 01:29:10,080
but the servant actually processes
2185
01:29:07,360 --> 01:29:10,400
it so i wonder how would you talk about
2186
01:29:10,080 --> 01:29:13,360
it
2187
01:29:10,400 --> 01:29:15,280
you know like thank you so much for
2188
01:29:13,360 --> 01:29:19,040
articulating this so well
2189
01:29:15,280 --> 01:29:20,960
because i mean um i mean i think in some
2190
01:29:19,040 --> 01:29:22,960
ways it's kind of implicit in some of
2191
01:29:20,960 --> 01:29:24,960
the things that i was writing about that
2192
01:29:22,960 --> 01:29:26,560
you know so when janda is writing about
2193
01:29:24,960 --> 01:29:31,760
these lanterns
2194
01:29:26,560 --> 01:29:34,000
he knows that he does not know
2195
01:29:31,760 --> 01:29:35,920
like there's a great sense of knowing
2196
01:29:34,000 --> 01:29:37,360
what you do not know because you are
2197
01:29:35,920 --> 01:29:40,960
like separated
2198
01:29:37,360 --> 01:29:44,080
um and like in one of the other chapters
2199
01:29:40,960 --> 01:29:48,239
i write a lot about um
2200
01:29:44,080 --> 01:29:51,360
uh um uh optical illusions
2201
01:29:48,239 --> 01:29:53,440
and um camera obscura
2202
01:29:51,360 --> 01:29:54,560
um like the kind of the boxes with the
2203
01:29:53,440 --> 01:29:58,639
pinhole camera
2204
01:29:54,560 --> 01:30:02,400
in them um and there's a like a huge
2205
01:29:58,639 --> 01:30:03,280
um there's there are a bunch of people
2206
01:30:02,400 --> 01:30:06,639
who are
2207
01:30:03,280 --> 01:30:09,920
like crafts going working on
2208
01:30:06,639 --> 01:30:11,280
um creating illusions and so
2209
01:30:09,920 --> 01:30:14,080
this whole question of like this
2210
01:30:11,280 --> 01:30:17,679
engagement with like mechanics
2211
01:30:14,080 --> 01:30:22,400
and craftsmanship and what
2212
01:30:17,679 --> 01:30:24,719
um what the master
2213
01:30:22,400 --> 01:30:26,560
the sphere out of which the master
2214
01:30:24,719 --> 01:30:29,360
excludes himself
2215
01:30:26,560 --> 01:30:31,040
is is very much something that i'm i'm
2216
01:30:29,360 --> 01:30:34,880
fascinated by
2217
01:30:31,040 --> 01:30:38,159
um uh so um
2218
01:30:34,880 --> 01:30:41,520
but you're you're totally right that um
2219
01:30:38,159 --> 01:30:45,280
the kind of the
2220
01:30:41,520 --> 01:30:49,840
the dynamic is actually kind of a triad
2221
01:30:45,280 --> 01:30:49,840
um so so thank you
2222
01:30:50,320 --> 01:30:54,159
thank you tina and thank you everybody i
2223
01:30:52,400 --> 01:30:57,600
think we our time is
2224
01:30:54,159 --> 01:31:01,040
up um for the formal talk but we
2225
01:30:57,600 --> 01:31:02,960
um still we will leave the meeting open
2226
01:31:01,040 --> 01:31:04,639
for people who want to hang around and
2227
01:31:02,960 --> 01:31:08,080
you know continue the conversation
2228
01:31:04,639 --> 01:31:11,040
so feel free to stay and thank you
2229
01:31:08,080 --> 01:31:12,800
thank you for moderating thank you tina
2230
01:31:11,040 --> 01:31:15,120
thank you everyone for the questions
2231
01:31:12,800 --> 01:31:20,639
esther for all the behind the scenes
2232
01:31:15,120 --> 01:31:20,639
facilitating and we really appreciate it
