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US-China in Africa

“Scramble for Africa:” A New Cold War between China and the US?

UCLA Young Research Library, Rm #11360 (Conference Center)

The Honorary Consul General of Guinea, Jordan Garcia, will moderate a panel discussion on US-China in Africa: “Scramble for Africa:” A New Cold War between China and the US?  

The panelists will be:

  1. The Honorary Consul General of Guinea, Honorable Jordan Garcia
  2. The Honorable Ambassador Hossam Eldeen Aly, Consul General of Egypt
  3. The Honorable Thandile Babalwa Sunduza, Consul General of South Africa
  4. The Honorable James O. Omosa Rwoti, Deputy Consul General of Kenya
  5. The Honorable Crisantos Obama Ondo, Ambassador of the Republic of Equatorial Guinea to the United States of America

 

Free and open to the public

 

For more information, contact the UCLA African Studies Center

Email: africa@international.ucla.edu
Phone: 310-825-3686
https://www.international.ucla.edu/africa/

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Audio MP3 Download Podcast

Duration: 1:44:24

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Transcript:

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:32:03

Unknown

This. Good afternoon, everyone. My name is Cindy Phan. I'm the vice provost for International Studies and Global Engagement. I'm also professor of geography. And I'm here to welcome you on behalf of UCLA. And also on behalf of UCLA Chancellor Jim Bloch, who sends his regards for not being able to be here. But he is so delighted that we are having this program today.

00:00:32:05 - 00:01:11:05

Unknown

In particular, I wanted to thank our panelists for speaking today in this discussion. And I would like to thank on my immediate left, the Honorable James or Ms. or Moza Roti, Deputy Consul General of Kenya, to select His Excellency Hosam el-Din Ali, Consul General of Egypt.

00:01:11:07 - 00:02:04:15

Unknown

And who is left the Honorable Tendi bubble one son Duzer, Consul General of South Africa, and the Honorable Jordan Garcia, Honorary Consul General of Guinea, who spearheaded this event, and the His Excellency, Dr. Crisanti. Also Obama Ondo, Ambassador of the Republic of Equatorial Guinea, who Cosby had at this event and to his left very proud. A Bruin. Elisa Elisa who is Mr. Dean in Latin American Studies who is here to help.

00:02:04:15 - 00:02:10:11

Unknown

Translation. Thank you, Elisa.

00:02:10:13 - 00:02:28:02

Unknown

In the audience we also have Mr.. What gender can be in the fun here? He's director of international relations, policy and protocol from May as Mayor Karen Spence's office. Welcome.

00:02:28:04 - 00:03:01:17

Unknown

Well, some of you may know that Los Angeles has the second largest consular community in the world after New York City, with 105 countries currently maintaining a consulate in the city. And UCLA works very closely with the consular community. For example, just 18 months ago, we collaborated with the Los Angeles Consular Corps on an event, Global Challenges Local Responses as part of UCLA's International Education Week in November 2022.

00:03:01:19 - 00:03:32:20

Unknown

And in that event, more than 25 Consul general came. And this is a great example of how UCLA expense outreach as a global university, which is one of the five pillars of the UCLA strategic plan. And the way we do that is strongly is to connect with the city, while we also connect with the world. And today is another very valuable opportunity to to collaborate with consul general who are based in the United States and based in Los Angeles.

00:03:32:22 - 00:03:55:15

Unknown

And I would like to thank the African Studies Center director, Harold Torrance, who was just standing next to me, deputy Director Eric and Jim, as well as Sheila reading, and our students, James, Clarissa Tolson and Eliza, Lisa, for all your important work. Thank you.

00:03:55:17 - 00:04:21:21

Unknown

And of course, also Professor Sobukwe Odinga for moderating the panel. I wanted to end my remarks, my welcoming remarks on a personal note. So I'm a geographer. My own research is migration, in particular, migration in China. And in that connection, I have had a chance to visit a small city in China called IWU. And you will. It's 190 miles from Shanghai.

00:04:21:23 - 00:04:59:16

Unknown

And it is known to be the largest market of commodity wholesales in the world. And not only that, but the city has a number, a significant number of migrants from Africa involved, mostly in trading. So based on research on international migrants and you actually call published a paper that just came out this early this year. So I'm here to learn about U.S. China in Africa, but I'm also here to learn about the significance of of your discussion for African migrants, not only in China but all over the world.

00:04:59:18 - 00:05:20:08

Unknown

So thank you once again to all the panelists. Thank you to all the attendees. I know many of you are from UCLA, but also many of you are from the community and community Engagement is a big part of what UCLA does. So thank you very much for coming and enjoy the discussion. And I'll turn it to Herald. Hi, everybody.

00:05:20:09 - 00:05:45:03

Unknown

I am Harold Torrance. I'm the director of the African Studies Center. So I just wanted to take a second to build on Cindy's remarks. And welcome everybody here to UCLA and say thank you for taking some time out of your day to hear this really interesting discussion. So I also wanted to in particular, thank the people who, as Cindy said, spearheaded this entire project, too.

00:05:45:03 - 00:06:14:15

Unknown

That's Jordan Garcia. And also to Dr. Odinga, who is a professor in the UCLA African-American studies Department who has agreed to moderate this this discussion. And in addition, I want to thank Erika Anjum, who is the second in command at the African Studies Center, and Sheila Breeding, who's back in the summer in the back of the room, who has done kind of all the behind the scenes work in putting this together.

00:06:14:15 - 00:06:23:04

Unknown

So please take a second to just thank all of these folks with me.

00:06:23:06 - 00:06:56:04

Unknown

And with that, I will turn things over to to Jordan and book. I met Sheila 12 years ago and 12 years ago I was appointed by the Republic of Guinea as an honorary consul and the first things I did when I was appointed, I contacted many, many university in Los Angeles and California, UC Berkeley, many of them to introduce myself and especially university was African Department, and no one answered me.

00:06:56:06 - 00:07:24:10

Unknown

And the only person you saw me was Sheila. And I said, Wow. And she inspired me immediately. So I came to schedule an appointment. I came to see her, and she was very surprised to see a white person representing an African country. She said, Wow. And she was very surprised because she told me she was the first time she saw a consul general coming to the African Studies Department.

00:07:24:10 - 00:07:48:16

Unknown

And it was 12 years ago. And she was so nice. And she said, What do you have to drink and say you want to drink a coffee, tea? And she said, and I still remember she said, You have very good tea, I think, for some in Kenya. So I have a tea with her and I immediately see she was a good person.

00:07:48:17 - 00:08:31:22

Unknown

She has a very good heritage and she was very interested about Africa. And she's doing a major and incredible job at the African Studies Department and without her, of course, will not be here today. And she's always here when I when I contact her. So thank you. Say that for all of the work. And sometimes a diplomat, sometimes we always give a certificate to the Maya, to the governor, and we always forget people like Charlotte, because not only she works for UCLA, for the UCLA African Studies Department, but she's also an ambassador for hers because she she has many programs about Africa.

00:08:31:22 - 00:09:09:23

Unknown

She do a lot for Africa in Ukraine. So thank you, UCLA and UCLA. So we'll begin today by allowing each of our illustrious panelists to introduce himself or herself. Obviously, we'd like to thank you so very much for joining us this afternoon. We will allow 15 minutes at the end of the dialog for questions. Some cards should be coming around and you can write your questions on these cards.

00:09:10:00 - 00:09:36:02

Unknown

They'll be brought up front to me and I'll select from among them and I'll post them to the diplomats who are represented here on the panel. But first, we'll begin by having them introduce themselves and offer a few insights with regard to diplomacy and contemporary regional affairs and relations between the United States and China and African states. Thank you, Brother Odinga, for giving me the wisdom to introduce myself.

00:09:36:04 - 00:10:11:18

Unknown

But before I do, allow me to thank the administration of this university that exiled the Department of African Studies for giving us the opportunity to be here today, to be able to share something about Africa and how we went to the United States of America and how we led to other partners, including China. My name's James Moser. Jim Somoza is the deputy consul general at the Consulate general of the Republic of Kenya in Los Angeles.

00:10:11:20 - 00:10:47:05

Unknown

I'm not too academic like you guys here, but I know that one time I was in university at Kenya, at the university in Kenya, where I studied economics. I went to the University of Nairobi, where I did my Master of Business Administration. But upon being placed as a diplomat, I realized I needed to know more, which took me back to King's College in London, where I did my second master's in the National Security Studies.

00:10:47:07 - 00:11:19:21

Unknown

And for a while, some diplomat I mean, I saw an economist in the Ministry of Trade of the Republic of Kenya later on joined the Foreign Service, where I continue to serve for the last 17 years and probably in a few years to come. So is my summary introduction. Thank you. My name is Hosam Ali. I am the Consul General of Egypt in Los Angeles.

00:11:19:23 - 00:11:58:06

Unknown

I am a career diplomat with 34 years of a 34 year career. And nobody does know. No, nobody should make any math. Assume that I started at age ten and I. I, I obtained a Ph.D. in in, in international studies and national security and on the veterans theory in 1999 from the University of Vienna, Austria. And I have I have been negotiating a number of of key agreements.

00:11:58:06 - 00:12:25:21

Unknown

I attended tens of meetings in the International Atomic Energy Agency in Vienna and others. I served ten years in Vienna, four of which were the mission of Egypt Embassy in Vienna and the rest with the United Nations. I also served the New York I in charge of the first Committee on International Security and Disarmament for four years and a year as senior advisor to the president of the General Assembly on Disarmament and International Security.

00:12:25:23 - 00:13:07:12

Unknown

I think so, yes. You hear anything you. So so I am not an expert on African issues, but they of course, they have an African. I represent a very proud African country and I am all African in so many ways. So I think I think today we just have some discussion. I should should have, of course, started by thanking the professor and by by thanking the the Center for African Studies director.

00:13:07:14 - 00:13:26:06

Unknown

Our our moderator today and others. And I think I thank you all for your interest. It's very rare on such a fantastic day to have people choose willingly to stay in a room and hear people from from from people like us on such a complex issue. But but thank you for my part. I think this see you all.

00:13:26:06 - 00:13:53:18

Unknown

And thank you for being here. Thank you. Greetings. My name is time to listen to the I'm the Consul general of South Africa. They just say they are responsible for 14 West Coast states. I would like to them the university UCLA. Firstly, to say thank you so much for hosting us and it would be honor for me. As South Africa celebrates the 30 years of freedom of this university was verdict is strictly say, down with the.

00:13:53:20 - 00:14:17:03

Unknown

So I want to thank you all who were students here. I believe so. You see in a still oral history. Okay. I think I'm the youngest independent. I was born during the height of apartheid. So my life has been politics all my life. I've just became a diplomat in 2020 when I was appointed by the president to be here in the United States.

00:14:17:03 - 00:14:42:18

Unknown

I've been a member of parliament of the Committees on Security and Defense, on Intelligence, but it wasn't because of me. I'm not this is what the reaction of some coast and my friends, mostly also peacekeeping, because I've done a lot of peacekeeping missions in in African countries, including Zimbabwe. I've been in the Middle East as well. I won't mention the countries.

00:14:42:18 - 00:15:05:08

Unknown

I don't know. We have 11 million votes. So I believe to a South Africa is, you know, with its regional politics and and its politics internationally, we've been raised to raise our views and our country. Freedom speaks of the values of humanity. So humanity, the first thing that comes to us before politics. So human rights issues become very important to us as well.

00:15:05:10 - 00:15:25:08

Unknown

And the issue of women, international individuals, because women are the global space for people personal. We are fighting this space to open for women. That is one of my key objectives. You know, when I saw the damage, because this is international as a woman, I said, here we go. So what I would like to say about my country, that is the regional politics.

00:15:25:08 - 00:15:47:23

Unknown

And we don't fight with what everyone is offering to whether we disagree with you or decide to move us because we live on the views of Nelson Mandela. Just before you become a human being, I just want to say that parliament has taught me as well to say that the legislation is very important that isn't legislated. We think of people, the world, not only of it, but in a part of the world.

00:15:48:01 - 00:16:11:00

Unknown

So it's a very interesting topic, and I hope this is notable to say the quote, I'll just say the differences of opinions and the differences of ideology, which we are really good to discuss. Thank you so much. So my name is Jordan Garcia and the honorary consul of Unique of Guinea. My name is very long, so I it's Jordan for my legacy.

00:16:11:01 - 00:16:44:13

Unknown

I got out and I have a French accent because I was born into the French house from a Spanish family who immigrated to France in the 16th. So we are all immigrants somewhere. And I'm in the US for 25 years with my wife Tania, and she was a student actively here at UCLA. It's the reason I love UCLA and I go to Africa many months a year, especially in the country I really love.

00:16:44:19 - 00:17:13:04

Unknown

It's a very rich country in minerals, and we have the biggest reserve of bauxite in the world. I mean, you and the now and we are building the biggest mining iron ore mine in the world and in Africa. It's called the Simandou. It's a $15 billion project and the world now is 700 kilometers. And we we need only 30% of it.

00:17:13:04 - 00:17:40:22

Unknown

So these are many interests for many countries, especially for Guinea. And I like to send because sometimes people say, he's white, if you represent the African country, and I always use the word of Nkrumah, who was the first coordinator of Ghana, and he always say, I'm not African because I was born in Africa, but then I'm African because of Africa.

00:17:41:00 - 00:18:06:10

Unknown

was born in me. I said I, I tried to speak Spanish. So I think I will, I would like to say a little bit in Spanish because I think diversity is very important.

00:18:06:10 - 00:18:39:13

Unknown

So with the help of my translator, I'm going to talk in French and English. My name this is an oil I knew if I that I mean, it is emotional I'm very thankful being in the space of work and also reflection

00:18:42:16 - 00:19:04:09

Unknown

I want to greet everybody here, especially the government, the women of the government, and also of the organization of the UCLA.

00:19:11:14 - 00:19:31:18

Unknown

the film I saw an eagle in biology, so he studied with Haneke. Work in more for more than six years in Central Africa with a book.

00:19:31:18 - 00:20:00:18

Unknown

I think that's how he meant to people. Was who was talking about the observation of the environment and of this conservation, a lot of conflicts came up specifically between humans and animals, specifically the elephants.

00:20:00:20 - 00:20:47:12

Unknown

This is with the veto because sorry because of this conflict he has to say not only but it's about the social scientist. let's go in Spain and have a rather than

00:20:52:09 - 00:21:35:23

Unknown

he's the right word in Rome. Yeah, after when tomorrow also represents Equatorial Guinea for two years for the last five years have represented only Equatorial Guinea, Morocco, Ethiopia and the

00:21:35:23 - 00:21:43:21

Unknown

African Union and African region.

00:21:43:23 - 00:22:10:11

Unknown

He's pleased to be talking here about the relationship, African relationship, not only between Africa but also China and other countries traditionally. the economy of China.

00:22:10:11 - 00:22:30:18

Unknown

United States currently, arguably more importantly, the world. So he very pleased to meet you to talk about this subject and how these economies in these relationships can affect Africa. So he's very pleased to have this space here, to talk about it, to discuss. Thank you. Thank you. So thank you. And as mentioned, my name is Paul Odinga. I'm an assistant professor here.

00:22:30:19 - 00:23:11:07

Unknown

I formal training is in international relations and political science. And the questions that are raised today are informed by that training. I think we're honored to have diplomatic representatives from such a diverse array of African states. And I'll begin the questions by asking a matter of continuity and change, particularly given the title of the panel. So I would ask in what ways do you think the motivating factors and interest of the U.S. and China in Africa now align with or different from those of the past?

00:23:11:09 - 00:23:52:14

Unknown

We can begin perhaps with Deputy Council and most of them. How would today's interest perhaps be different from those of the past? Thank you, Professor, for asking that question. But first, as I said, I'm not academic, so I think there's a number of that we'll start with. I remember the topic that you was talking is about the scramble for Africa in the context of China and the United States.

00:23:52:16 - 00:24:23:03

Unknown

Looking at this subject, I begin to reflect on what happened in 1824. And I would at what happened, what was the driving force at that time, and how does it compare to what is happening today? At that time, the European countries were king and Africa as a source of resources, of course, and of course, an area of settlement.

00:24:23:05 - 00:24:57:14

Unknown

Therefore, they something to divide Africa for purposes of apportioning us trust, fighting some people to stay or to engage in economic activities. But of course, we can also control settlement today. I don't know whether that topically applies and I am isolation and this is why I have this issue, because if you look at you will find America not controlling anything.

00:24:57:14 - 00:25:47:04

Unknown

And I think you will find China not controlling anything in Africa, nothing out of that. The core of the operations, therefore seeking for influence in Africa, no more or control of anything. I know there's been a lot of discussions here. They have their own writings, some alleging that China is trying to muscle Africa changes going to Africa. China is of exploiting African sources, but as another Africans who live in Africa and other everyday working on relationships between countries, I look at it differently.

00:25:47:06 - 00:26:17:07

Unknown

If my look at is that we have two countries in labor states and China looking at Africa in terms of the friendship, and then we try to work container gain from Africa. What America carrying from Africa. But at the same time what we Africans group to gain from these two and this how do we engage and at the table.

00:26:17:09 - 00:26:50:14

Unknown

So in terms of the differences between that time and now, it is a motivations that I have. The motivation was based on access and control. Yes, the motivation of this time is to gain success. Number two, I need to be influence and then access to opportunities that are available in Africa and which can be enjoyed on a much more basis.

00:26:50:16 - 00:27:08:02

Unknown

And that is what exists, is not to say thank you, thank you very much. I tried to put some some elements to it. As a colleague of mine, have we had a discussion and I also do to put the ideas we discussed on a piece of paper. So if you are going to have to read it otherwise she's never going to talk to me again.

00:27:08:04 - 00:27:34:03

Unknown

Please do this. So I just want to talk to to talk in general, seeing that the topic itself, hearing about it from the very beginning, it acquired the some clarifications that we're not talking about Africa as a subject to to global powers, but actually that Africa today is very different than than what Africa used to be a few decades ago.

00:27:34:05 - 00:28:09:12

Unknown

The the the the potential that Africa holds on so many levels is is extremely strong to make it a subject. So let's see that we need to be looking at this topic as the three main main partners, a continent that is very strong, has very strong organizational dynamics among its members, has very clear goals as successes against poverty, successes in development, successes of technological progress.

00:28:09:14 - 00:28:40:12

Unknown

Of course, they're still in Africa in different African quarters. Some challenges we still have some some challenges in terms of mismanagement of resources, corruption for education. But the good thing is that there is very strong work done done in that regard. So Africa, of course, is is now having a population of 1.4 billion people, which is something very significant because that's a big share for the population.

00:28:40:14 - 00:29:16:12

Unknown

In 2050, this figure is expected to reach 2.5 billion. So a massive portion of world labor force would come from Africa. And the and the way Africa is developing today, the role of Africa on the global scene will be far more diverse and far more effective and far more influential, both in the United States and in China. So we have to look this in that, in that light, in addition to to this economic growth that Africa is happy is witnessing, Africa's role in, the global response to climate change is pivotal.

00:29:16:14 - 00:29:41:13

Unknown

And of course, we know that climate change is is this topic relating to the continuity of the of the very existence of mankind. And it's very important to to see how Africa plays a role in this regard. So the continent holds a significant share of global supply of cobalt, manganese, lots of platinum, crucial components for batteries and clean hydrogen technologies.

00:29:41:15 - 00:30:11:11

Unknown

Moreover, Africa is leveraging its leveraging technology to address climate change with innovative solutions in renewable energy and sustainable agriculture. Solar power, in particular, is gaining traction in African countries due to its affordability and abundant sunshine, potentially accounting for 60% of the world's potential solar resources. So African nations are at the forefront of developing sustainable energy solutions, utilizing their ample hydro, solar and wind power resources.

00:30:11:12 - 00:30:40:08

Unknown

So this is, I think, very important to to to approach this topic. Let me touch maybe on on, on, on on the the competition or the so-called competition between China and the U.S., the the the American perception of China's involvement in Africa often includes concerns about debt trap, debt trap for diplomacy by increasing countries reliance on this antagonist to us view that that often often fails to recognize African nations interests.

00:30:40:10 - 00:31:14:03

Unknown

And this is because there is a line of thought in the United States that looks at it in such way. China's Belt and Road Initiative aims to enhance connectivity and infrastructure development, potentially benefiting African nations along its route. Additionally, China has a role in development of major projects in Africa. For example, in Egypt. China made substantial contributions to Egypt's new administrative capital, with investments amounting to over $20 billion.

00:31:14:05 - 00:31:40:09

Unknown

So the relations between Egypt and China have been very much driven by mutual interest. And so so has been the situation with many other African countries. So let's say that Africa is not on the receiving end only, but Africa is also an interactive player in this in this relationship, guided by its own goals and its own interests and its own objectives.

00:31:40:11 - 00:32:20:15

Unknown

It believes we let's, for example, highlight that the relationship between Egypt and China has actually strengthened significantly in recent years, characterized by extensive economic cooperation, infrastructure development projects and growing trade ties. China's strategy in Egypt often focuses on infrastructure development, such as building roads, bridges and ports, as well as investing in energy and telecommunications and capacity building. These investments can contribute to economic development by improving connectivity, facilitating trade and attracting foreign investment.

00:32:20:17 - 00:33:04:04

Unknown

On the other hand, the US plays a significant role in Africa as well through various channels, perhaps with different tools, including diplomatic, economic and humanitarian efforts. Historically, the US has provided aid and assistance to African nations, focusing on areas such as healthcare, education, agriculture and economic development. Moreover, Egypt enjoys a strategic partnership with the United States marked by collaboration in counter-terrorism, regional stability, Middle East peace process, economic development and and many, many other other areas over the past decades.

00:33:04:06 - 00:33:33:01

Unknown

The US and Egypt have cooperated in regional peace efforts, including mediation in the ongoing war war in Gaza, demonstrating their commitment to fostering stability and security in the Middle East and the North Africa region. So Africa's trajectory in the global economy hinges on addressing its challenges and leveraging its opportunities while navigating complex geopolitical dynamics and fostering cooperation with key international partners like China and the United States.

00:33:33:03 - 00:34:06:01

Unknown

Through strategic foresight, diplomatic engagement and a commitment to shared goals such as peace, prosperity and global stability, the the involvement of external powers like China and the United States can have both positive and negative effects on intra-african relationships and regional integration efforts, maximizing the benefits and minimizing the risks required African nations to assert their agency, prioritize their own developmental goals, and engage with external partners in a strategic and balanced manner.

00:34:06:03 - 00:34:42:22

Unknown

Strong intra African and unity are essential for navigating the complexities of external involvement and advancing the continent's collective interests. Diffusing superpower tensions and advancing African interests requires effective diplomatic efforts through facilitating dialog and negotiation to promote mutual understanding and advance shared goals of peace, stability and development in Africa and beyond. So areas of joint cooperation include economic development, climate change, global health and many others.

00:34:43:00 - 00:35:15:03

Unknown

However, there are also areas of competition between China and the United States, which require careful management to minimize risks, mostly with regards to exertion of geopolitical influence, technological dominance, security and competition over military presence and strategic alliances. Essentially, African countries have the potential to negotiate more favorable terms and partnerships with both China and the United States by adopting a proactive, strategic and unified approach to engagement.

00:35:15:05 - 00:35:54:14

Unknown

Regional integration and initiatives such as the African Continental Free Trade Area, one of the flagship projects of Agenda 2063 of Africa's development framework can enhance Africa's collective bargaining power and negotiations conducted by leveraging the collective strength, diversified partnerships and prioritizing the developmental objectives. Both China and the United States need to understand the interests of African countries to diversify their economic and diplomatic partnerships in Africa and to avoid dependency on a single external power within Africa.

00:35:54:15 - 00:36:30:07

Unknown

So African countries need really to be guided by their own agenda and they need to maintain a balanced relationship. So it is not just just one one. One partner has to do two to complete the game, but African countries and African nations have to deal with whoever. As my dear colleague to my left had just mentioned, that we seek our interests with everybody in a balanced and friendly and you should be an agent of cooperation rather than debate.

00:36:30:09 - 00:37:08:23

Unknown

And whoever has something that can advance our our, our security, our our development, our, our interests, we should be extending our arms to them and cooperating with them by engaging with multiple, multiple partners. African nations can increase competition among donors and investment, so creating opportunities for better terms and equitable partnerships. This aligns very well with Egypt's foreign policy to diversify its partners with global and regional policy towards the realization of its national goals, aspirations and vision and commitments and vision.

00:37:09:01 - 00:37:43:03

Unknown

So thank you so much. Thank you so much. You're going to look at the dough and you're laughing because I hope to have not so pleasant to say that topic. So I just wanted to start with people say that of we are not numbers of people, but it was a teleconference instrumental in partnership with us. I think I wasn't able to find that topic because this is field like we're not independent states, so but we are on anything I think that might be even removed from us because we are sovereign now.

00:37:43:03 - 00:38:13:12

Unknown

We're not controlled by our budget. Further to say, look at the first thing. But I will be saying because it was an outbreak, I must remember that both of them have always had, always had vested interest in another by the program. The U.S. wanted to invest. I don't know. But it's humanitarian issues. You you say there is sort of this perception that's where 88 in Africa, one child looked at the opportunities and built infrastructure and partnered with infrastructure.

00:38:13:12 - 00:38:50:02

Unknown

And now when the opportunity hosted by the US becomes a bit of a Cold War, because while the United States was the world's most people in basis, it had this basis to safeguard these human rights issues and no terrorist. And on one, the most important factor is economic part that we are one. But the second issue, and I thought this was the issue of the oppressor, the block, the new block that is making it in matters worse because nobody has ever seen Africa as a country that can take to be a part of the block because everybody thought they owned Africa.

00:38:50:02 - 00:39:32:08

Unknown

But now when the so-called third world countries started now to unite, formerly the BRICS. And so you have to put pressure, as with other EU conference, because now after the problems formed, if you a member said it is that it came inside now three plus you know because so many countries now but in best interest as well so so also to say that these are post-colonial issues because if you remember from the time because what happened was much maligned but no one had interest to invest what I image investors for the United States all I think you know Africa you trying to solve the burden sharing the problem with you you want to be in

00:39:32:08 - 00:39:59:08

Unknown

space they tried these companies do you know here there's a rule Chinese don't wait for the war to end while the war is to continue, they are looking at opportunities. What did you hear? Or what can be what it can happen? They're thinking we need you to Do you want to see what the difference? Right now they're doing similar even in Sudan with the help of the will you find that these are looking after the war or what are you going to what are the blockade trade?

00:39:59:10 - 00:40:21:06

Unknown

And that's what I always say to my my counterparts in the United States say, you want to come with this team. So what can we do best we can We can, you know, justify doing so. I knew that what a difference strategy of approach on there's no test. So I think that is one of our economic strategy that is working for them, you know, which now becomes like a policy which is not our fault.

00:40:21:06 - 00:40:47:11

Unknown

You should use China. The US are different ideologies, but when it comes to economic partnership, there's no ideology of that matter as well. And I think what also the interest also is because yeah, you saw that presidents are becoming younger. And the other thing because they don't speak the language of the past, they don't they say, yes, I like to partner with us as the front for us.

00:40:47:11 - 00:41:08:20

Unknown

So talk or you need that. I need 50% or you go, So it is put in president because now there's this there a lot of funds I can sign up for programs for more platinum. So obviously all the technology that is out of the world means all those kind of of of of of minerals as well. And also just for policy.

00:41:08:20 - 00:41:33:12

Unknown

But look, what Africa needs now is more it is on position more than age. We don't need any more. We wait because this issue of making the aid, you know, like you look sometimes the problems in say, Washington, you say you can go and take a go away from you. And that is what some African countries say. Okay, you can talk about that more to go to show.

00:41:33:14 - 00:41:55:11

Unknown

So silver bullet in politics are no longer working for African outlook because we solve it. So you agree with us or not and it tells us what it is we like South Africa. Our second biggest trading partner, the United States. China is very far from all of us is a UK than the United States. So sometimes what is being said is not what truly.

00:41:55:11 - 00:42:16:06

Unknown

But we've got a very positive relationship with the United States on many other issues as well. But sometimes they they were complaining about that. But but also, you must remember, Africa is not only for the oceans the better than those in the ocean, the economic zone. These are the oceans. Now we've got Atlantic. We've got the idea, got the mystery.

00:42:16:08 - 00:42:41:13

Unknown

So you see the battle of economic. So which ships are coming? Who is patrolling the seas? You know, so both sides of what everyone wants and everyone wants to build them, you see. So that's why now this interest is becoming more and more. I think the most important thing is now is a is a unit of the African Union.

00:42:41:15 - 00:43:11:15

Unknown

You know, the African negotiator now, as you know, for the African free trade quantum entanglement for 20 states. So that has, I think those who used to rule Africa, I never thought of that. So we are saying, I think are you to take us even more freely in the continent. So sometimes in the economy, trade, but some tactics would work because you have to abide by by what we prey upon.

00:43:11:17 - 00:43:43:00

Unknown

And every policy partly remember I always say whatever I was about to get corrected because one of the questions I'm always asked is to say that why are you aligning yourself with in China basically, you know, so the partnership with China is with partnership with the United States. But The political struggles will never be forgotten. Who in the Cold War and my comrades during the times of need, you know, but it doesn't mean that those people have taken over.

00:43:43:00 - 00:44:06:21

Unknown

We've got many disagreements with China, and as I said in South Africa is open for business for any of us. We don't like it or anybody else knows. And Mandela said, your friends are our friends, but your enemies are not our enemies, so we don't have to fight with anybody. So that power struggle, we need such an attitude to see if you saw if I close or if you saw that Africa not long ago.

00:44:06:23 - 00:44:33:06

Unknown

President Pamela has visited Africa, Zambia, and all because it was to time and solve this relations because the U.S. and most times they've seen Africa like I'm 5050 geographically. I'll make an example when I come here it's people from South Africa. You know those people my friend in Kenya, I'll tell you, it shows how Africa has been portrayed.

00:44:33:08 - 00:45:01:15

Unknown

So time is a very different perception to that attitude because some people still think we someone asked me just to help us think, continue on this, to show support, to know that you know, So I'm just trying to say that their mindsets have to shift. Then you will understand, because that's what I'm saying. Even the quantity out there is also also going to say that the other side of politics, even if you don't agree with them because it might be perfect for you.

00:45:01:16 - 00:45:29:02

Unknown

I think the few sure thing we can say also, it's we have a tendency to say Africa and you have a friend of mine, he said, Africa's ace because South Africa. Okay. Nothing to do with my uncle very even than Egypt, different than Guinea and different than Kenya. And but we all we want to say Africa, that makes many Africans.

00:45:29:04 - 00:45:53:05

Unknown

And the thing we can see the past 20 years, it's Africa have changed a lot. It's not anymore what it was. And they give you an example in the francophone countries towards the French who controlled most of these countries until 20 years ago. They used to have their own ways that I said, No, we don't want this. What we moving, we changed.

00:45:53:07 - 00:46:15:23

Unknown

Or you guys say, I want to change my country. You know, we were moving. And the problem is friends now in France, you didn't see Africa changing constantly and in their mind. And I'm French. I didn't say in Big mine with chiefs of colonial time, we are going to we movies and stuff. We are going to play games.

00:46:15:23 - 00:46:46:06

Unknown

And they didn't have to start Africans because now they partner with China, with India, Turkey, Egypt or some African partner. So it's completely different now. And if you want to control again the political inside, you will be out of again. And you can see these for many country folks in other country, in Europe, the US, a little bit sometimes.

00:46:46:08 - 00:47:10:21

Unknown

If you don't go away, we let you go and you put some sanction on your country. And I think it's a completely wrong way. And when when I took the titles, quote unquote for Africa, this is called for partnership because now China, African country and I talk to you about this. We have this from Mr. Investor and he needs China.

00:47:10:23 - 00:47:41:04

Unknown

And we have to keep and identify which little beta needs us, why we don't have too much too many US companies can never get company this because the US company you don't understand after go and invest scared about Africa. Even if I told you many business people say, my God, I said Chinese back all the time until I say during the COVID, I told you to Guinea.

00:47:41:04 - 00:48:05:06

Unknown

We were like seats in the plane and as soon we stop in Paris, that plane was full of Chinese and we go everywhere. I said, Why you don't go there? Fortunes from partnership. We local partner and try to do business. And of course, if you wait here for African to bring you business, you are going to wait a long time.

00:48:05:08 - 00:48:43:08

Unknown

Yeah. And in the 19th sector, why we say, my God, Chinese. We control many minds in Africa. Yes, it's true, because they have a long term vision. See, are 1015 years vision. But when the when the Minister of Foreign Affairs of China gets in position that you won his first trip to Africa. The first trip we can check you go to Africa immediately because they know they need to close partnership for the minimal African needs.

00:48:43:08 - 00:49:30:15

Unknown

I don't know why they invest 15 billion in Guinea. It's not because they love Guinea being at all. And we don't want your bag. You know, from Australian for geopolitical reason. So they're pushing them and are very good partnership sometimes yes Sometimes don't like them because you don't want to pay minimum wage or visa. But this is of the African country to say you are going to these that that and they will do is so what I'm to what I said to my American friends you need to go where you learn and if you're interested you know in both sides go there trying to get people can help you and you try to get private.

00:49:30:17 - 00:50:05:08

Unknown

If you don't think Americans are very afraid. Now it's China. Not only they control the mind, the transformation, the fabrication, because we used to make these for us, but now they send the same one and probably better. And that's it. And we see that with Tesla. Now, China, China's making forgive again. But yeah, and it's already better than Tesla because they know how to get it easy for years.

00:50:05:19 - 00:50:29:16

Unknown

yes, there is competition for being able to have free go and for us company. We need to partner up with their countries. They're in a win win situation because the only thing that I'm going to offer now, many of which is going

00:50:41:13 - 00:51:03:12

Unknown

I think that now we can all agree that we have two major competitors in the global economy. There's China and states if they're both they're both major countries in the world.

00:51:03:12 - 00:51:42:12

Unknown

Are you going to conflict you're going to have fields they compete

00:51:45:17 - 00:52:46:09

Unknown

we have four major areas of influence and also competition. That multi year technology with AI and development technology. We also have I it's so it's 101 different side the economy economy yeah yeah economy and also security different views also are in the relationship I think religious of these countries these all of fuels are in the relationship

00:52:46:13 - 00:53:31:18

Unknown

that the United States have with China and that, you can't be there at least to pressure China in the four elements the China position is China doesn't like any tentative of the United States of being overpower China said they are not competing United

00:53:31:18 - 00:54:02:03

Unknown

States China is working only for development of their society. This is what the Chinese politicians

00:54:16:15 - 00:54:31:14

Unknown

with this size of China very very completion and defensive of development of this country. We're gonna have impact in the world going to overpower because of its size

00:54:36:01 - 00:54:53:23

Unknown

so they're more almost two years of evidence. we also have to remember.

00:54:53:23 - 00:55:26:14

Unknown

The United States and China worked together during the sixties. And because of this partnership, China began to develop. So we need to talk about the factors to address the current confrontation that can have between United States and China. the lack of partnership with Africa.

00:55:41:14 - 00:56:00:10

Unknown

we have to of look at, we have African countries that support the United States. And we also have another side of African countries that supported China effective

00:56:00:12 - 00:56:30:23

Unknown

When we talk about economy, that element of economy, the majority of countries support China

00:56:31:01 - 00:57:16:16

Unknown

In the nineties, China began his partnership with Africa and was formalized in 2000 and you focused on the development of this country. Bailando about world. Yeah. Okay. Thank you all in this program in China.

00:57:16:16 - 00:57:47:18

Unknown

And third on continents to develop the infrastructure so effective infrastructure of these countries and they really should began in 2009 with China and African countries and United States audience with only 14.

00:57:54:03 - 00:58:09:05

Unknown

And we also have other countries that maintain competition with Africa has Turkey and Japan.

00:58:09:07 - 00:58:58:12

Unknown

So the confrontation and competition in Africa, there's something to do with China, but also something to do with the lack of willingness, let's say overnight states because when you talk about the level of partnership of the African countries, they might talk with the countries turn to China. When we talk about sustain maintain peace security

00:58:58:14 - 00:59:42:08

Unknown

most of the countries turn to the United States because of slavery, colonial atrocities of Asia, the country. The conflict has a lot of problems

00:59:42:10 - 01:00:09:12

Unknown

So I had Egypt interfered in Israel. And so there's there's places where you murders. We have kidnapings, but so is there mining

01:00:09:14 - 01:00:38:01

Unknown

Well, we talk about terrorism, security, safety. United States is very much active. they point here in common is that all the African countries have maintained good relationship with China and the United States

01:00:46:17 - 01:01:01:21

Unknown

force because they have a bad experience of what happened in the cold War with United States and the U.S. are

01:01:01:23 - 01:01:24:03

Unknown

A lot of African countries saw themselves embracing wars, so I'm going through though don't want another cold war and they one relationship that benefit both of the words

01:01:31:02 - 01:01:55:13

Unknown

there is a saying Africans say that when twelve people fights, in their woods, the woods also suffer. because any confrontation of these two deep countries in the world can have consequences in the African continent.

01:01:57:10 - 01:02:28:04

Unknown

and difficult for the area of the country wants to have very good relationship with China Well we also have a background motivation of why the African countries want to maintain this relationship relation to China.

01:02:28:04 - 01:02:52:11

Unknown

The African countries see, China has a new element is closer, because a few years back China was also a country in development so the African country is now look at China and see the potential he also have the same process

01:02:56:12 - 01:03:21:05

Unknown

so they see the development of China as a modern development and then other they can copy Asia and China know how to use this speech of being a more a more closed on modern example.

01:03:29:00 - 01:04:12:04

Unknown

African countries. The United States has a partnership. There is far but also is safe. so if China is this country they can copy their model always a model that is closer United States is far but it's also very safe and partnership that it can count on

01:04:22:23 - 01:04:39:06

Unknown

so we have different expertise for one side we have China with companies, their experience and one of the expertise is the infrastructure has developed greater.

01:04:39:06 - 01:05:19:13

Unknown

For instance, in another side we have health service. In health, you know, states have the most competitive companies so it is you have to say is very much involved in the African you African and because it is potential and potential to exploit his location

01:05:32:12 - 01:06:06:02

Unknown

before inside China goes off of countries and allowed African workers to go to work in China. The United States not very interested in going physically to China the African culture values the closeness show respect show that you care and China

01:06:06:02 - 01:06:38:01

Unknown

does that so it's be a look a little bit more careful so this closeness. Yes thank you. Deputy Consul General Mosul. I'd like to offer a few more remarks in response to this question, as would Consul General Ali, please. Says more on that in understanding, in seeking to understand the competition between China and the U.S. in Africa in May needs this.

01:06:38:01 - 01:07:12:22

Unknown

And I say that to go back to 1991, assuming the Cold War in 1981 is in the U.S. as time went down, began to disintegrate in the seat was disintegrating for us. After its disintegration, the continent between the East and the West began to fade. And with the Fed in the West, were actually the consensus of African countries.

01:07:13:00 - 01:07:50:11

Unknown

And Grant withdrew from what they used to do to African countries. Some of you may call this statement made in 1994 by the then president of the United States of America. He six in his or not Reagan, whereby he said he does not wish I mean, he does not want to read his statement that connects the US Africa relations with African I mean with the development assistance.

01:07:50:13 - 01:08:22:02

Unknown

He doesn't want read these two statements in one paragraph. What did he have in mind? It was like we have done with Africa because now USSR, which used to call some of the intra African conflicts and and therefore now that our enemy is out of the way, then there is no need to spend much in trying to prevent opposition in Africa.

01:08:22:04 - 01:08:51:22

Unknown

And by sort of going the story of Africa in the West began to think and wonder shortly after they are came this policy that if the West was to extend the course, when I talk about the West, I'm not talking about the West, I'm talking about the whole bloc, including Europe. If they have to extend an assistance to Africa.

01:08:51:23 - 01:09:30:06

Unknown

Yes. To pass through their private institutions, World Bank, IMF and whenever these African countries went to the IMF, World Bank, there was reinstatement. And that assistance must be accompanied by a statement to one of the 28 African originating floods of you may not remember, you are North Africa. I also I am African and I was you know, I meant that time.

01:09:30:08 - 01:10:01:17

Unknown

And of course I remember the subject of values give you. You have to get that all in Kenya was to get around from IMF and World Bank. First you have to demonstrate that it is ready to embrace the concept of democracy. Of course, a democracy as it defined in the West and not as divided in Africa. These became a big problem to African governments, and for that reason they began to think, I don't want to give you a better example.

01:10:01:19 - 01:10:43:14

Unknown

If in 2003 we have a new president in the Republic of Kenya, and at that point in Kenya, things began to change because we were part of the of the British and as a client of the British, because we always looked at Britain as ever, we are a partner with the United States. Then again, how would we continue with that relationship, which looks like it is putting us into a box which had we come out of the box and developing our country, we began to embrace new partners.

01:10:43:15 - 01:11:25:02

Unknown

And it is around this time, Jane, that gone from the much Africa and it has continued to imagine match why China was coming to you before you are problems. You see infrastructure, you have problems you see ahead. Your problem is in education. Your problem is poverty reduction. How would you reduce your poverty if you do not have capacity to develop your institutions, capacity to develop infrastructure, capacity to develop your agriculture, food supplies, food security?

01:11:25:07 - 01:12:04:08

Unknown

And this in Africa, I mean, China occupied that space. I as we come to around to add 2009, 2008, then the West is beginning to realize something is happening in Africa, particularly when I China began to address Africa through full time roles and will shepherd advocate the West. You say, Yeah, these are challenging danger and this danger must be put where he or she belongs.

01:12:04:10 - 01:12:30:12

Unknown

And it is. Around this time we began to talk about this aspect of Scramble for Africa. We now used to have it and it is around this time we began to hear narratives that are making China look bad in Africa. It is around this time we began to hear narratives about China being interested about resources in Africa and lots developing Africa.

01:12:30:14 - 01:13:15:07

Unknown

It is about this time we began to hear the narratives about gender, bring in its own workers and impose them on Africa at the expense of Africans and men of the stories. But you believe that is true? yes. Even if you can't pay, for example, I'm talking about he said that the Chinese are imposing rooms that would at the end of the day, we in Africa, of course, I remember 465 million shillings, billion conditionings, which we used to develop our 450 kilometers of leg.

01:13:15:13 - 01:13:52:10

Unknown

And of course, the narrative was Kenya is going to step out of Mombasa because China is not a force. It's a country to talk away. Really simply when you go to the ground, you don't find those things to me. And in summary, this is a matter of great power conflict attempting to put a halt to embodying dynamic and challenging teenager coleridge-taylor and nothing more than that.

01:13:52:12 - 01:14:21:09

Unknown

But no, but one thing is Africa is also looking for China. Africa is also looking for Anika. Africa is also looking for Europe and to saying all we are out to do, we are looking for mutual partnerships. Let us respect one another. That's also respect to China. Of course, they may decide to ask one or group for each because we feel there is nothing to.

01:14:21:11 - 01:14:49:23

Unknown

We are also here to partner with you, the United States of America, because we know is something we are willing to gain from you. The something and Europe and same thing. This is what is maybe happening out of that. Probably we may need to find another name is that I see a brother that is another name and it removes what member of partnership they think it is done before ever partnership without heat.

01:14:50:01 - 01:15:12:20

Unknown

But the moment you begin to use that word scramble, you are beginning to refracted the minds of another country like myself to the 1844 story. And that is why it becomes difficult to to to to absorb and to grasp it. One might I wish even we were talking about competition for partnership with Africa. Thank you. Thank you very much.

01:15:12:20 - 01:15:36:00

Unknown

I think I think the discussion this afternoon has been very helpful. And I personally learned a lot from from interventions of my colleagues for for you and for for for whom. I just really thank you much. But it comes to our mind as we discuss this further and further, that it appears that we are only seeing a small part or an incomplete part of a very complex picture.

01:15:36:02 - 01:16:11:11

Unknown

My assumption is you cannot talk about US Chinese competition in Africa in a manner with us. We are tending to do, which is assuming that they operate in a vacuum in Africa. My understanding also that it is very difficult to talk about the Chinese role without considering the role of the Russian Federation. For example, the Soviet Union did not mention Soviet Union was replaced, was inherited by the Russian Federation, another extremely strong country that is present in Africa, very, very fluently.

01:16:11:12 - 01:16:41:01

Unknown

My country, for example, we a massive project, over $30 billion project on our generation nuclear reactor, for example, the threat that Russia was the one to give us the most competitive bid for and so on. So in order to look at China and the US competing in in Africa, they're not just competing among because much of Africa is already engaged with with other partners that are very strong.

01:16:41:03 - 01:17:19:00

Unknown

For example, look at the Gulf countries, look at the massive amounts of land that Saudi Arabia has taken in African countries to dedicate to future joint agriculture, for example, or cattle to look at the massive projects that the Emirates have been involved in. And it's very difficult to look at the Chinese the United States competition while acting like Russia is not there, or that the European Union is not there, or that that France is not there or the Britain is not there.

01:17:19:02 - 01:18:00:09

Unknown

And we also have to bear in mind the present. For example, China and Russia have cooperated very, very closely as they together often block US resolutions of the Security Council, the alliance of of of of for cooperation among themselves in in trying to hedge the very strong American influence in the Council, for example, and elsewhere. So they have this strategic link that cannot let you consider only China as as a challenge or as a competition because China is very strongly associated with these with the Russians and the Russian Federation is a very strong present force in Africa and in the world.

01:18:00:11 - 01:18:30:17

Unknown

So so this is very important. And also, as we look at the Chinese America's role in Africa, it's very, very important to realize the extremely complex, complicated situation in the world as a whole and how these dynamics and dynamics of conflict, both in Africa as well beyond or in the neighborhood of African territory, is affecting so much the potential that that could be achieved by cooperation by African nations, even among themselves, because of all this challenge.

01:18:30:20 - 01:18:50:16

Unknown

For example, look at the conflict in Sudan. Look at the conflict in many, many of the corners of Africa. It's very, very important to look at those superpowers such as or so-called superpowers of China, for example, that emerging competition with the United States few decades ago. This would not make sense because it was all about the US and Russia.

01:18:50:18 - 01:19:11:07

Unknown

But I think we're very far from a form of Cold War. But we would also need to see that it is in the interest of whoever wants to invest in Africa or cooperate with African nations that they have a very important role, They have a commitment, a moral commitment and a practical interest in playing a much bigger and effective role in the conflict resolution.

01:19:11:09 - 01:19:36:02

Unknown

So so we need to highlight this and also and also flag that. I just would stop there. Thank you. I appreciate that you are going to answer your questions, but I think it's very important for me to raise this issue. And to all of you, the issue also how we define terrorism, prison, Nelson Mandela and all other countries were quoted on President Mandela.

01:19:36:02 - 01:19:58:17

Unknown

But in the United States, as you are still classified as a terrorist because you are fighting for the liberation from sort of many other people. Now, I think it becomes very, very important how to define. We were also called heroes because we're fighting for all the liberation of Bob, But because you don't have prove something. I'm not saying terrorism is not.

01:19:58:17 - 01:20:19:18

Unknown

They know it is. But also one of the questions to us who is also funding this problem? You know, I think that's where we start because at some stage this terrorist as well. So now what part of this is very important to bring this political aspect because but also, of course, the issue of competition. Is it also the issue of culture?

01:20:19:20 - 01:20:42:05

Unknown

You see, I believe all of you, and I hope you've been to Africa. If you're not going to talk to me, I've done this, but I not going to bite you. So it is important to also the cultural aspect to say that if you don't agree with this culture, I'm not going to sit with you. You know, I'll make an example that some of my friends, again, most of any new burden.

01:20:42:07 - 01:21:02:14

Unknown

And the thinking is that to say I do not allow this community in my country because I think there's a cultural aspect of starting their culture. You know what what what China is doing is also starting to talk to everybody. You don't come with the human rights issues and then you impose them. You see the thing. You also need to understand the court rules.

01:21:02:14 - 01:21:29:09

Unknown

Remember, you cannot just influence a person without understanding where they come from. You know. That becomes very, very important. I was telling somebody that, you know, this time I spoke to my American was it was I love them to see understood. Because it also the issue of visas become very important the relations because when we Africans go to China, they don't give us a reason because they don't want on.

01:21:29:11 - 01:21:52:05

Unknown

But our friends, yeah, it's a struggle to get a visa. You know, those of events and these other issues that also bring this competition and take it because you need to understand the issues as well. And I also want the advice as also say something to the media. You know, what I do when I watch mean I like to ski and I go to Al Jazeera, I go to All Africa.

01:21:52:07 - 01:22:14:21

Unknown

They write a story but different angles. So it's better to have at the same I but it was the other politicians coming to follow up to do something to become an African Indian is becoming a major sport. How I look when I go to take on the US and and they tell you that India is becoming a danger as you support Vincent and Vissel and also the cartels in the East.

01:22:14:21 - 01:22:35:00

Unknown

And so I think for me it's very important for you to be to be very open minded about some of the issues as well, not what you are, who you are fed because it becomes a problem. No, but well, sometimes you want to change another truth about about Everton. Where we go, we have to bring these quotations, I think.

01:22:35:02 - 01:23:03:01

Unknown

I think you are the word for questions, you know. Thank you very much. I think thanks to all of you for the comprehensive one question I have as the moderator, and it builds upon your remarks that we see in all of your responses an emphasis on African agency, African and African interest. And we see an interest on mutuality and partnership.

01:23:03:03 - 01:23:39:19

Unknown

And even within the closeness of partnerships that you've suggested, there are points of disagreement. So when your countries and your government can come to these points of disagreement with the US or with China around questions of security or economic development, for example, and how do you go about confronting these disagreements? And perhaps you apply different strategies to disagreements with us and you might apply disagreements with China as you go about advancing an assertive African interest.

01:23:39:21 - 01:24:15:09

Unknown

Answer the question in a very short format and me say from a diplomatic point of view and from the Kenyan point of view, we all have all the countries of the world. We embrace them. And I know we have these partnership with every country, despite the differences on how we look at each country and what they do at the end, enable.

01:24:15:11 - 01:24:57:21

Unknown

We are all friends and what countries do to navigate this kind of competition, if I may call it that way, is focusing on what is in it for us. We join a team of interests today, looking despite all these that these things hate the United States of America. And this is one of the biggest partners with the public of Kenya today, the environment in which they talk of security, U.S. it's number one talk of trade and investments.

01:24:57:23 - 01:25:25:09

Unknown

U.S. is bigger than China is in Kenya and other Western countries. Of course, let me continue clarifying that. When we talk about us, I am assuming that the US is representing them, the Western countries, including those that are in Europe. So and our focus as African young African countries is where we benefit from the United States of America.

01:25:25:09 - 01:25:59:12

Unknown

And our focus is exactly on that area. And I want to thank the United States of America that even as they compete with China, it has these strong policies of engaging Africa, particularly those in sub-Saharan Africa. And I want to point to one example. When he thinks it is President Biden came up with the strategy towards the U.S. strategy towards the sub-Saharan Africa in 2022, he that out of business.

01:25:59:13 - 01:26:37:08

Unknown

And from where I am sitting here, I can confidently say that Kenya has been one of the biggest beneficiaries of this agenda of the US government. I think I said yesterday, I know we had a big conference in Nairobi where we are discussing business economy investment, and I can quote one statement I had from Excellency Ambassador Meg Whitman is that in the recent past we have had around 700 million U.S. dollars of investments in the Republic of Kenya, and that is what we want to see.

01:26:37:10 - 01:27:07:12

Unknown

But at the same time, Professor, we cannot say, but now that we are lucky, cause with the United States of America, we are going to put aside one other partner in this case tough on China. And of course, probably let us make China to represent those other countries who do not see one another from the same page with the United says no, we have to continue will continue embracing everybody.

01:27:07:18 - 01:27:41:13

Unknown

And that is why, if you want to bless infrastructural development in Kenya and other countries in Africa, you will find that the greatest investor is China and it still continues. But trade and investment, China is bad, it's bad people. And of course I expect another country to be there. Japan is their biggest investment in terms of need. See investment from the east Kenya as a starting working up and it's coming up with the speed and engaging and partnering with Africans.

01:27:41:15 - 01:28:17:23

Unknown

And that is it. So basically what I am saying from where I sit, I see African countries embracing lots of economic pragmatism when it comes to engaging these competing partners. In other words, yes, compete the way you want to compete, but for us, what are we benefiting from each one of you? Although even if I'm saying this to some extent, at some level, I can see some level of limited by Museveni more.

01:28:17:23 - 01:28:48:10

Unknown

So of course, when we talk of subjects like security in Africa, you know, Africans experience about security challenges. We have conflicts, as my president mentioned, in certain parts of Africa today in Africa. And America is too heavily involved to bring peace and development in those countries. Number two, when it comes to the fight against terrorism, I know America is heavily involved.

01:28:48:12 - 01:29:23:17

Unknown

And for that reason alone, I can confidently say a good number of African. They would if I had some limited weaponry behind the United States, because it gives that level of guarantee and for that in itself is a big benefit from the United States. So these are not enemy for Africa. Whether they are these are competition. All countries are friendly to Africa and Africa embraces them as such.

01:29:23:19 - 01:29:49:16

Unknown

I just want to say on the issue of engagement, you see when you engage, the most important is sometimes the diplomacy depends on the status. You also have to be rough and provocative. I'll make an example. The South Africa very clear. We would say that we want to call import based black economic empowerment. So that means if a trade inflow of 50% of the trade, you must be black.

01:29:49:18 - 01:30:14:19

Unknown

You know, because of our past, you would find some countries. I would have voted them out, the US would have been or China spoke about it. But now we decide to say no for their skills. I would say, How would you know the skill of an African person if you have never tasted it? So those are sometimes the disagreements because this on stage people want to trade with people that they are comfortable but have been trading for years.

01:30:14:19 - 01:30:40:17

Unknown

But we've got the policies and the law from Africa. So we do have to do something in trade. So what I'm just trying to say, you've done the others, other country. One says, no, we don't agree. The police then go away. We go for another one. But you thought that that's all. We must become people. Sometimes if you want proper people in part of the political dossiers of people, even with disability, it's part of our economy.

01:30:40:17 - 01:31:03:07

Unknown

Okay, well, a locomotive like all of us have a country. You can have that in another year. some things that we can solve because this is what it is. Some do not become here. But as I said when I started as well, also the issue of ideology. You see all you grow up learning the communist missionary, whatever, but it doesn't mean that you are one.

01:31:03:07 - 01:31:26:16

Unknown

So people who want to bring the attitude, you know, you've got this communist agenda, but I'm saying it one thing doesn't wasn't a do a good job. You want to mine because that's what we train was also you speak about people present come to our office general and perfect as moving towards a communist if that America American you to all but you are talking with Vietnam so what are you trying to say?

01:31:26:18 - 01:31:51:23

Unknown

On the other hand, you have boat embargo Cuba. So those are critical. You know, so you get to this stage is now. Yes, we do get that. But Eleanor, the thing if people do not engage like a like we don't have a US based on administrative reasons of that, it wasn't. So you were not fighting with anybody. So some might say, you know, one of our terrorism, if there's a terrorism, yes, you will intervene.

01:31:52:03 - 01:32:12:12

Unknown

For now, we don't want any face because you might attract enemies for us, you know, So you will find ways to to be diplomatic about these issues. Yes, we do disagree a lot. You've been allowed to because some of the visitors come to my office. The first question they'll say to me, you know, China out also, you feel kind of control of China.

01:32:12:14 - 01:32:32:18

Unknown

What you want to do. But as the United States you've been I've met academics as well. And then again, you know, when I would say train you as students to I'll invite you as well to say, come to Washington, come to Africa to learn a different something. No, no. But you need to know and what China also about just to say as well.

01:32:32:20 - 01:32:55:23

Unknown

They also take students to know it's you know it become so what I'm saying we have this lot sometimes to become very, very personal. Hey, I don't want to go to the US politics, but the moment you engage and have dialogs, it's where you, you, you find your way. I think that's the best way for a few things.

01:32:56:05 - 01:33:21:05

Unknown

I don't agree with everything here, but it's normal. Well, I think we need a real competition. We can call it scramble or whatever you want to be realistic, he said. We want competition. We, you know, China and the U.S. we have one economy going of China and one is a Super Bowl. You know, the world doesn't want to go down.

01:33:21:09 - 01:33:57:09

Unknown

Yeah, that's it. So here and, you know, forget like that. And they're competing in Africa. It's not a joke. I talked you many U.S. diplomats in Africa they say and this is conversation subcommittee conversation and they all told me all men concern China It's China. And in Guinea, their main concern is China is true because when like we have a similar rules going to be the biggest iron ore mine in the world, all of the iron ore will go to China.

01:33:57:11 - 01:34:35:03

Unknown

And I don't know, you know, that China, I'm culturally aware of all the world minerals and police don't know which one of these want to use. Gold gallium and gallium. It's very expensive, very rare. You find it in bauxite and it's a for the US and for Europe because gallium you would find it in my shape but also in like even in the airplane no know active jets military.

01:34:35:05 - 01:34:59:15

Unknown

So it is a deep concern to us about that's why because all the gallium by the way in China from China in China a few months ago, two months ago, we say, okay, we're going to have a price of 40%. And it is a concern for the US because it is true more your battery for your Tesla will cost $120,000 and not anymore 40,000.

01:34:59:15 - 01:35:34:07

Unknown

All the price of that is going to cost $150,000. And so you the thing we were talking about sale and security and in Asia, we have pulled it off a few months ago and the U.S., we have a major military base in Nigeria. They spend more than $100 million in Asia. And we just need to replace. And after the coup, of course, they condemned the coup that everyone they went one to negotiate.

01:35:34:09 - 01:35:58:02

Unknown

And I knew what will happen. The went there to negotiate and I have friends on the show told me what happened in the US go where they say, okay, we want to keep our base here. We want you stay here. We want you to keep out of illusion in their village. You don't understand that, Niger. I have a really lonely so we will show.

01:35:58:04 - 01:36:23:04

Unknown

And I always told my friend from the detective unit why you don't call from Asia, Negotiate. I said, We know your relationship with Russia. It's not our problem that we want to work with you and we sort It's politics. Sometimes you have to choose you are with us or against us. And this is a major foreign African country, all three of us.

01:36:23:07 - 01:36:56:15

Unknown

Yes. They said no. We relationship with China since the sixties with Russia. They have us for our independence. So they don't understand African country. They get confused. That doesn't now. And we need to understand that and we need to channel diplomacy. We know what's happening with France said before, because you didn't see this changing so and and when I when I talked to ministers in Africa for you, then sometimes I talk to you.

01:36:56:15 - 01:37:23:01

Unknown

But please, enough of the need. Sometimes. And I always tell him, you think it's a chess game. We have many rules and we have many things more than you know what? In that beginning, they say you have to play with everyone you need. You have a good relationship with China because we need China for major infrastructure level and but we need the US also.

01:37:23:09 - 01:37:54:17

Unknown

yes. Because he thinks we can learn from the U.S. exchange why we don't have the US to help us to open a stock exchange and use like that to control the price of bauxite and yeah, I always tell that. I mean that and I always tell him something to stir the situation from the shop world view everyone know who's traveled the world and shot the war always said states don't have friends.

01:37:54:19 - 01:38:31:11

Unknown

They have only interests. States want a friend that only interests in North African country understood that. They said, We have friends, we are friends, yes, but the states. The states. No, friend. Thank you. Thank you. It would be quicker than that. It makes it very interesting and very fruitful.

01:38:43:09 - 01:39:08:09

Unknown

We have talked about cooperation operation that brings benefits and this is what Africa this operation that brings results So we talk about the closeness, the effectiveness of the visit of the United States

01:39:17:07 - 01:39:43:18

Unknown

We can talk. I think that at the end of the day, you. The competition exist and you probably will arise and for if and that's why we are negotiating and states to be more with their very in a not with guaranteeing them

01:39:50:13 - 01:40:30:19

Unknown

we talk about closeness and culture but Trump was the first president since Reagan the dinner went to Africa. Our current President Biden also visited Africa these are important elements when you talk about preparation is basically when we want to compete with other economic giants like China the program they define of global cooperation there is the global program

01:40:32:08 - 01:40:59:18

Unknown

is a program that is about the transaction between sub-Saharan Africa and states, But this program also have politics and ideology behind because it excludes some countries and include other ones.

01:41:01:10 - 01:41:27:19

Unknown

and it doesn't, but it I feel the relationship with the United States and our society. He has a huge reserve of gas and petroleum and I think the United States only know Igbo union because of that.

01:41:41:01 - 01:41:51:19

Unknown

we have been together, the actual and we have to with the mayor of Los Angeles to bring companies to the bargaining

01:41:59:17 - 01:42:09:18

Unknown

This is the message of this exciting country for the United States administration to be more, more close and to be there for the African countries

01:42:11:18 - 01:42:47:00

Unknown

otherwise going to be late in possibly leads to me. We also have to talk about security and development, and China has an element. There is more. Appreciate it. Where the United States its security aspect is more curiously the the growth and they see the insurgency about it are based Chinese youth are based in Equatorial Guinea interest.

01:43:02:11 - 01:43:15:04

Unknown

why our politics say that the security of our country does not is not related to United States and we are waiting for you to talk about infrastructure and development of agrarian

01:43:26:08 - 01:43:53:20

Unknown

So here we are in the kitchen of contracts with students, employees. So you guys should pressure the US organization here. The Harper government has a whole to be more presence in Africa

01:44:00:00 - 01:44:18:12

Unknown

We are a country, we are friends, and we have a lot of American people that have African differences. So we should working in partnership to develop the world thank you very much


Duration: 1:44:24

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Download file: US-China-in-Africa-Flyer-revised-4-19-2h-lnn.pdf

Sponsor(s): African Studies, African Studies

25 Apr 24
2:30 PM - 4:30 PM

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