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Margaret Peters: Hey, I'm just gonna share my screen real quick and a couple slides because, you know, those of us in Political Science can't do presentations without slides.

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Margaret Peters: Me just make this full screen.

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Margaret Peters: All right, I will be very brief. So this is the papers titled left out how political ideology effects support for displacements in Colombia.

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Margaret Peters: To Holland, who can't be here today and from Harvard and young issue with astronomy UBC

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Margaret Peters: Okay, so when we think about public opinion on migration, the best amount of our knowledge comes from the global more

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Margaret Peters: And when we think about what has come out as what seems to affect public opinion on immigration.

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Margaret Peters: It tends to be issues of culture. Now, a lot of the people who come to the global markets are coming from the global south and our other different culture.

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Margaret Peters: They might have a different race a different ethnicity, a different religion they often speaks different languages.

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Margaret Peters: But when we look among migrates to move within the global south, they're often much more culturally similar. So here we're looking at Venezuela and Colombia.

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Margaret Peters: And and there they share a language and they share a cultural history, they often share or like at least religious heritage, even if they don't exactly share the same religion they used to all be Catholics, but of course other religions have made inroads

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Margaret Peters: And they mostly share and ethnicity with both countries being majority white messy. So with some larger dish polarity of Afro Venezuelans and Afro Cubans.

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Margaret Peters: So one question we have in the approach this research was just thinking about like Dora theories that we've developed in the global north translate to the global south. So we have all these economic theories

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Margaret Peters: I won't go through them because I see most people are sort of familiar with them. And then we have these various cultural theories. So we test all these theories, but we also want to introduce

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Margaret Peters: One new way we might think about how public, the public thinks about new migrants, which is thinking about political ideology.

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Margaret Peters: So here's just a picture of voting booths in Colombia Colombia has had 50 plus year history of civil conflict that is based on the left versus the right and even before the civil conflict started

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Margaret Peters: They've had conflict over the left versus right since, you know, approximately, like the 1850s. So it's been going on for a really long time. This conflict. And it really is along the left rate dimension.

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Margaret Peters: We're done as well as we probably all know for the last 20 years have been ruled by Governor socialist whether or not they're really enacting socialist policies, but are definitely on the left spectrum, especially around economic redistribution.

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Margaret Peters: In Colombia. You also have individual minds can though in local elections after five years.

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Margaret Peters: As long as they've met their like various residency requirements. So it may not be surprising then that politics becomes a really central asked access and which conflict over migration happens

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Margaret Peters: And what we documented the papers that a lot of this seems to be driven by the media and by politicians strategically using the Venezuelan migration to try and gain more support for the right

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Margaret Peters: So what we hypothesize is that Colombians will favor right wing migrants in general, there'll be a preference among individuals for people the same ideology.

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Margaret Peters: And that ideological concerns will affect the support for openness, we did this survey in Colombia of 1000 Colombians and about 1600 Venezuelans

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Margaret Peters: almost exactly a year ago in the fall 2019 who cooks at Columbia, which is right on the border with Venezuela and it was a smaller city. It is not a larger city because of the large number of Venezuelans who've come in.

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Margaret Peters: And and it is a city that is primarily whiteness diesel and then we looked at also Cali Colombia which is further towards

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Margaret Peters: The interior of Columbia and it's further away from the border with Venezuela.

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Margaret Peters: So the migrants, you can come to Cali are often a little wealthier because they can make the trip a little further, they have those resources and Kelly also has a different ethnic

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Margaret Peters: Racial mix today. They typically have more Afro Colombians so we asked both observational questions in this paper and also a forced choice content. So one thing we found is just there's widespread misperceptions among the Colombians about the Venezuelans

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Margaret Peters: So, the vast majority are like a large number of the club me and believe that the majority of Venezuela and support the left support mineral

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Margaret Peters: Even though in our survey that might be the magnet to come in as well. I definitely do not support the left only 12% do and nobody likes Maduro that that like point 1% is basically like two people said that they like, they support it Maduro and our whole survey.

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Margaret Peters: They Colombians believe that the majority Venezuelans can vote in national election source. The Venezuelans know that they cannot

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Margaret Peters: They believe the Venezuelans can vote in local elections, whereas most of our we interviewed Venezuelans had only been in the country for at least three years, and all of them know that they actually cannot put in local elections.

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Margaret Peters: Colombians we're worried about look by adding support for the gorillas enticed to promote gangs and we just didn't find much evidence for any of those among our Venezuelan migrants.

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Margaret Peters: So we asked a series of questions about support for openness, so should be Columbia, close the border.

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Margaret Peters: Would you like to see people moving to other big move to other cities. And so what we see here are coefficients each from a separate regression of this variable of the openness index on this variable plus some controls and we're starting to see some support others not as robust

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Margaret Peters: At work for our argument that

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Margaret Peters: partisanship or ideology matters. What's interesting is we don't find a lot of support for some of those typical hypotheses. So in the global north. The big one here is about. I think about skill in the global north, people who are more skilled

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Margaret Peters: Through formal skills. So more educated and typically are much more supportive of immigrants and then people who have less formal form formal skills.

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Margaret Peters: And we just don't see that in our study and whether you magic look at whether or not they're skilled whether or not they have a formal contract which typically is more skilled individuals have a formal contract.

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Margaret Peters: Versus working informally mother, they have a higher salary. What is interesting is, those who receive more benefits and slightly less supportive of

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Margaret Peters: Migration, which suggests that people are worried about these Venezuelan migrants taking some of the benefits away.

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Margaret Peters: And then instead of our cultural theories. We're definitely seeing where were direct contacts that like if you work with Venezuelans or your friends with Venezuelans makes you more supportive, whereas indirect contacts like just seeing people on the street makes you less supportive

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Margaret Peters: And the interest of time, I won't go through all of this. So we also did this forced choice conjoined where we gave

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Margaret Peters: survey respondents we gave the same content to both Colombians and Venezuelans

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Margaret Peters: And we asked them to rate different profiles of hypothetical migrants and ask you should be allowed to settle in their city so Venezuelans our r&d lab into the country. So we asked about who can settle in your city.

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Margaret Peters: We also wanted to have a different migrant group to compare the Venezuelans to. So we looked at internally displaced person so

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Margaret Peters: You may or may not may or may not know that Colombia has the largest internally displaced population of any country in the world. And so we asked whether we asked. He gave a hypothetical migrant all these different identities could be

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Margaret Peters: Changed randomly depending on what the people saw. And what we found is that both of them. The Colombians in mind the Venezuelans

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Margaret Peters: Is there's much for your support for hypothetical miners to support the center right then who support the left

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Margaret Peters: And not surprisingly Colombians for more supportive of displaced Colombians and Venezuelans and Venezuelans vice versa.

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Margaret Peters: But again, I think it's interesting for what we think about in the global north, looking at this skill level is that when we do these contracts in the global north

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Margaret Peters: It the skill premium is always high whoever said most high skilled individual is always most not it's always preferred and it's usually like a big coefficient and here we've got basically nothing

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Margaret Peters: So I just think that's really interesting when we compare this to the global north people actually are more supportive of folks who cannot find work, which maybe is some concern about

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Margaret Peters: Labor market competition and it's also interesting to compare with the from the global north is in the global north when we do these surveys

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Margaret Peters: Nobody likes the migrants who are coming in because they're facing poverty at home, whereas, here you see more support for people who are fleeing poverty than those who are fleeing our rest but and they got

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Margaret Peters: Fleeing prime and among the Venezuelans. This was really high, probably because most of the Venezuelans in our survey were actually fleeing the economic collapse.

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Margaret Peters: We find that really knows nothing on the African descent. Again, that's really different from the global north where that coefficient would pop a lot

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Margaret Peters: F. But what is similar to the global north is that there's always more support for female migrants and

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Margaret Peters: I'll just show you that we do find support that people like the same same ideology are saying partisans so people who are Colombians to place themselves in the center more supportive of center right and also place themselves on the right or more supportive of the center and right

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Margaret Peters: It's probably the case that those who are on the left or more supportive of left maintenance, but we have so few of them in our sample that the competence intervals are really big.

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Margaret Peters: The other thing I would say this among the Venezuelans

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Margaret Peters: I don't have the graph here, but it's really their concerns over Paris in the ship is really just driven by the Venezuelans where's the Colombians are concerned about the partisanship of the other Colombians coming into

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Margaret Peters: Which might be some concerns about local looting as well. But then as well. And so like the Colombians are all still here.

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Margaret Peters: Regardless, so just to bring some conclusions to the paper. So, what we are paper is that political cleavages in a country can imprint on to immigrants, they can be brought into what is already the pre existing cleavage.

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Margaret Peters: Whether it's an identity cleavage based on ethnicity, or in this case of political cleavage. We're just highlighting again there's

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Margaret Peters: Increasing literature in political science about the role of misperceptions and political stereotypes that this seems to play a role. This builds on this broader literature about the instrumental creation of identity and how politicians use identity.

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Margaret Peters: To gain more power and we'll just say the end is that we're starting to see increasing numbers of surveys of public opinion, the global south, but this is an emerging area. And I think it's one that we really should do more work in. So I look forward to efforts comments.

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Roger Waldinger: Okay, why don't you go ahead

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Efren Perez: All right, I will. Okay, so thanks for sharing that paper magazine co authors. So you have you have a manuscript here with lots of really cool data and results.

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Efren Perez: But I think where the paper falls of a bit short, at least in this version is that the theoretical focuses and as sharp as it could be. Right.

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Efren Perez: And I imagined that this is because it's it's one of the initial drafts and you know that's always the hardest part. I think in any of these projects.

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Efren Perez: But I also think that part of the lack of clarity stems from the state of the literature that you're engaged in

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Efren Perez: Which does focus quite narrowly on economic versus cultural considerations and explaining anti immigrant opinion, so much so that we've thought as you highlighted that that's the. Those are the only avenues in which

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Efren Perez: Opposition to immigration is expressed and contrast. You all are trying to shine light on the political motivations behind opposition to immigration and I think that is unique and I do think it's actually worth

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Efren Perez: Stronger explanation. So here's one potential brute blueprint for how to revise the paper going forward.

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Efren Perez: So the first is, you know, answer more directly, what is the contribution that you want to make right so

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Efren Perez: I think that one way you can make your paper stronger is by providing readers up front with a more thorough explanation about why politics can be the main driver behind anti immigrant sentiment.

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Efren Perez: So much of the literature on on anti immigrant sentiment focuses on the interplay between anger burnout. And that's sort of the generic

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Efren Perez: Sort of way to see this right with the cleavage between both groups typically being economic or cultural in nature.

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Efren Perez: But there's actually nothing sacred about either of those two divisions

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Efren Perez: They're not predetermine and they're often a function of politics that is that there are elected officials or institutions that find it in their interest to basically coordinate opposition to immigration along

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Efren Perez: These axes. So in order to make room for your ideological story. I think it behooves you to better explain why.

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Efren Perez: Or when or how or or all three questions, right, when, why, or how ideological divisions become a more prominent fault line.

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Efren Perez: In immigration debates and I think you have part of the part part of the story. There is that, you know, other avenues are sort of closed off right. Why are you going to make

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Efren Perez: Big hey out of small cultural differences, let's say, right. So one possible avenue. Um, is to say the following right and settings where there is physical or perceptual similarity between members of the host nation and members of the incoming group.

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Efren Perez: People are going to find other avenues to distinguish the group from the out group.

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Efren Perez: And so ideology becomes one potential candidates, simply because it can more clearly demarcate us from them.

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Efren Perez: Right. I mean, a lot of the psychological and cross national work that pays attention to cycle psychological motivations would actually tell you that

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Efren Perez: The reason culture and economics become sort of salient in these debates is because it becomes a really useful way to say this is what defines us. And this is what makes them different. But again, this could be ideological just like you're saying right

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Efren Perez: where things get a little tricky for me as a reader is in distinguishing this ideological explanation from what is potentially a really long list of alternatives. Right.

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Efren Perez: So currently, you have a really long introduction and an equally long literature review.

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Efren Perez: Which end up burying the main kernel of your idea. So on this front. I would, I would suggest three changes. So the first is just combine the introduction and literature review into an introduction as literature review.

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Efren Perez: Where you tell us how anti immigrant opinion has been previously studied and what blind spots have emerged as a result. One blind spot. We don't really pay much attention because economic and cultural considerations. Right.

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Efren Perez: In this new section focus on the most pressing alternative so i don't i don't need a full inventory, but I do need to know if it's going to be ideology. What might look the most like ideology that I can rule out with with the

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Efren Perez: Various data collections that you've undertaken so here I would actually pick two, maybe three but really two and for what it's worth. I think what is probably

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Efren Perez: Most similar to an ideal ideological story is fiscal concerns about immigrants and then just sheer proximity to the immigrants.

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Efren Perez: So the, you know, you can basically argue that the Colombian case is one manifestation of a broader pool of settings where you know it's going to make far less sense to pivot on culture and economics and much more on other dimensions with ideology being one of them.

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Efren Perez: Second, I would wrestle a little bit more with the following possible confound so is your ideological explanation for your results really a national identity story right and so this would put you back into been

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Efren Perez: It's really culture right so it's possible that Colombian national identity in shrines right of center politics because of its own peculiar development.

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Efren Perez: So any foreigners Venezuelan or not, are going to heighten the salience of Columbia national identity. That's what prior

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Efren Perez: Work on culture would say, which then is going to drive the patterns that you are generally observing so like a really strong critic would say ideology is already baked into Columbia national identity.

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Efren Perez: Frankly, I think you can go sort of either way on this ideology as a component of national identity. That could be your story right or ideology separate from national identity. But whichever of those two avenues you pursue. I think it's useful if you dig into

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Efren Perez: Some of the data that you have or look at some of the results but present them in a way that will allow you to clarify.

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Efren Perez: Or distinguish the ideological story from these other closer alternatives. I would also spend a bit more time.

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Efren Perez: corroborating the ideological or partisan story right you're offering something new.

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Efren Perez: Something that is not exactly intuitive for some people, especially ones that are not paying very close attention. So I think you have sort of a

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Efren Perez: Higher hill to climb in the sense that you have to propose the explanation. And then you have to defend it from people's more privileged pet stories, right.

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Efren Perez: So the question here is how can we empirically distinguish your ideological story in a more aggressive manner.

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Efren Perez: From other alternatives and how can we further validate this this ideology story. So one simple Avenue, would be to perhaps entertain.

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Efren Perez: The individual differences between being uninformed and being misinformed about immigration.

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Efren Perez: So if one is uninformed arguably more education or political knowledge is going to produce more correct opinions, right, you're going to bring them in line with your ideological outlook. But if one is misinformed.

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Efren Perez: You know, one's opinions could be sort of all over the place, right, I mean, you just don't know how to piece them together.

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Efren Perez: Maybe it's not the way to go, right, that that's sort of one thing that, that if you know if this were these were my data and this for my paper that sort of an angle that I would

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Efren Perez: Probably be exploring. But regardless, I think you have to look a little bit more for additional ways to test more observable implications from the theory that you're proposing which hands up, hands, it's hat on ideology, um,

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Efren Perez: Okay, so I felt like, are there any other issues in your data collections.

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Efren Perez: That are similarly explained by ideology, so you can show look ideology is predicting as expected, these kinds of issues in Colombia and politics. And what do you know it spills over into into into immigration as well.

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Efren Perez: Maybe feelings or feeling thermometers about leftist groups. I thought preferences about trade. I thought attitudes toward crime, you know, I mean like if we believe what's been done before an ideology.

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Efren Perez: Part of how it gets its pop is that it threads together a variety of issues. And so you can show that immigration is one of them. That is catching heat as part of this larger pool that I think it's even more consistent

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Efren Perez: With with it ideology sorry but I mean I long and short. I think, I think there is sort of promise in developing. I mean, I, for one, I mean, I think it's a little bit more complicated.

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Efren Perez: Than just economics or culture to be quite frank, I don't even think we have a good explanation as to why it is economics versus culture or culture versus economics. Right. And for that you have to have a sort of tighter story between

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Efren Perez: Sort of, what is the institutional arrangement in in the policy or policies that I'm examining and what are the psychological motivations to respond to that institutional setup. And so I think that might be sort of

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Efren Perez: A way to build this on I guess when all of a sudden done. What I'm really saying is you, your, your main advantages I see it is to clarify the psychology behind an ideological explanation because I don't see other people doing something like that.

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Efren Perez: And I'm going to stop there.

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Roger Waldinger: Okay.

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Roger Waldinger: Thank you so much for that's a terrific comment So Maggie And Yang Yang, you want to respond and then we'll go to the we'll go to the audience.

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Margaret Peters: I'm not sure I have any response. I think that was like super helpful and the theory section is really what we've been struggling with figuring out how to do it and how to rate it and

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Margaret Peters: That's it. Perfect helpful. Um, so thank you.

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Yang-Yang Zhou: Yeah, saying thank you so much for those terrific comments.

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Yang-Yang Zhou: That's going to really help us reframe the paper.

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Efren Perez: Market and I have done some work on language where it's not the same exact argument about that you guys are talking about, but it's basically what calls to the for

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Efren Perez: Some issues rather than others. And so one, one way to think about it is, who, who are Colombian citizens, on average, and if they're like a lot of people in the globe.

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Efren Perez: They don't pay that much attention to politics on a regular basis. Right. So that means that other things are going to crowd out

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Efren Perez: What they're generally thinking of. And part of what you want to say if there's something political there's something in in the setting that we're in that is that is that is

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Efren Perez: Making salient against that backdrop ideological considerations, rather than right. I don't think it's a question of like

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Efren Perez: Ideology necessarily at the expense of culture or economic but ideology as relatively more salient or a more accessible consideration relative to these other possibilities. I mean,

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Efren Perez: In memory. A lot of these things are likely to be correlated, but really what you want to show is despite that, the thing that is that is basic, everyone is coordinated to get up around is this ideological dimension and I mean

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Efren Perez: You don't talk about it this way, but a lot of your findings. You know, I think if you continue with that with with that explanation are pretty consistent with that, right, like for example.

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Efren Perez: scapegoating, and as well as as being a bunch of left. This is, of course, you're going to do that if the main identity that that is driving your behavior is either partisan or ideological and sculpt right that's like a very simple way to show how our group gets scapegoating

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Roger Waldinger: Okay.

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Roger Waldinger: Terrific. So show we now.

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Roger Waldinger: Turn to the audience if people would

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Roger Waldinger: It would be ideal if if you can open your video but if not send a raise your hand. Use the use the raise hand function or send something on chat.

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Roger Waldinger: I'm not seeing anything

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Roger Waldinger: Okay, so, so look, let me while we're waiting for other questions from the audience. And let me ask a question, I mean. So in a way, building on reference point.

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Roger Waldinger: I mean, it's clear that, you know, I guess, in thinking about is common occurred to me that in a way you had a somewhat similar situation in Switzerland, of all places where

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Roger Waldinger: The Swiss went along by the fact that there was a large migration, especially to the northern Swiss German speaking six cities of Germans so very little cultural difference. But in fact, the, the reaction was sufficiently great to provoke a Swiss

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Roger Waldinger: Swiss vote that led them to I believe approved some law that turned out to be in conflict with EU regulations. But basically, that would would have made it harder for

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Roger Waldinger: Germans to move to Switzerland. So there you have something I mean in a developed context but

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Roger Waldinger: The ways but migration in the case of culturally very similar populations nonetheless becomes highly politicized so

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Roger Waldinger: I mean there. I think you see again the role of national identity and then I guess one could ask about its converse that is cosmopolitanism. I mean, to what extent

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Roger Waldinger: Is there any preference for free movement as a principal and I suppose one way you could do also get it that

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Roger Waldinger: Is views towards immigration. I mean, I was struck once by looking at the Latino barometer, where they asked about views towards

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Roger Waldinger: immigration and immigration and you saw really a very striking contrast, which is

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Roger Waldinger: There was quite a bit of a opposition for immigration, but when it came to us towards immigration, particularly with respect to migration to the north. There was much way to support

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Roger Waldinger: And I've seen something similar in the Mexican server. So I'm wondering whether somehow another getting at print both national identity as a friend and suggested, but also some type of principle cosmopolitanism might be a way of better understanding what these dynamics are

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Roger Waldinger: Now I'm still waiting for responses from from the, from the audience. But I don't know. Maybe we could start with that. And then we could see whether we can hear from other people.

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Margaret Peters: Sure, yeah, that's a good case, I'll have to look into what was going on, what was said in the media about the Germans coming in.

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Margaret Peters: Slash asked my German friends who live in Switzerland.

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Margaret Peters: Because I know there's like at least there's like concerns over language and Swiss German being different than German German. And so ultimately will look more into that because that'd be a nice little companion, or like a nother case to look at and

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Margaret Peters: So you don't remember. I don't think we asked their views towards immigration, but we do ask whether people are receiving remittances and so we can see whether that affects because, of course, be receiving remittances then you have

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Margaret Peters: Yes, you're close to out there in the world, whether that has any predictive power when many other whether that's like totally orthogonal, because I think that's sort of an interesting idea of

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Margaret Peters: You know, why is it okay for others to move. If it's not okay there. Why is it okay for your people to be up, however, constructed your people are, but not others. So we could look at that.

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Yang-Yang Zhou: And actually have a follow up question for both of you a friend and Roger

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Yang-Yang Zhou: We makin are actually planning a follow up panel survey by telephone for the same respondents

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Yang-Yang Zhou: So usually you know when the survey is already done and you give us great suggestions we say, well, there's nothing we could do about it. We've already finished the survey, but I think we have an opportunity to add a few more questions to this follow up survey.

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Yang-Yang Zhou: And it would be helpful to know with this opportunity. What are some of the top priority questions you would want to know, like maybe feeling thermometer about leftist or crime or, you know, we just don't want to squander that opportunities. So we'd love to hear your thoughts.

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Margaret Peters: And just to add them.

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Margaret Peters: So since people are very quiet. I'll just survey, we're planning to do in the next month or so is also going to focus on how Cove, it affects us. So if you have

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Margaret Peters: Particular suggestions about. So we're going to go back to the state, we can go back to some most of the same individuals and then we'll probably throw some extra people into our panel to help increase the numbers, but

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Margaret Peters: We're going to ask specifically about their experiences with co bed and then boosters immigration, but if you have other questions or other thoughts for that to

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Margaret Peters: The database client will throw that out as a new idea. Maybe our paper was to polish. I don't know.

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Margaret Peters: As as something people could

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Efren Perez: Yeah, this is

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Efren Perez: This is that front.

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Efren Perez: Okay, so if you're gonna if you're going to collect additional data and you decide that you want to go in the direction of, you know, it is ideology. It's not this

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Efren Perez: I think the most, the most straightforward way, especially since you're already. I imagine you already have questions that you that you want to ask yourself is,

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Efren Perez: To have a battery of feeling thermometer items. And if you had two to three groups or individuals that are right of center two to three groups that are left of center. You could essentially create a different score of like pro right sentiment right and

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Efren Perez: You should be better. That would give you a sense of like

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Efren Perez: You know how much of these feelings are bound up with a with

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Efren Perez: With opposition to immigration. You can also in your in your battery of left leaning groups or individuals just include Ben, as well as themselves and see how correlated are bundled up, they are with these lefty

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Efren Perez: I'm sorry, you know, it's like, it's very descriptive, but I think it would be one way to start backing down like this is what's happening right in people's minds in Columbia, they are already incorporated into this schema or framework of viewing them as as left this

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Efren Perez: I would also probably ask

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Efren Perez: Probably is outcomes.

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Efren Perez: A question about or two about Colombian

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Efren Perez: National Identity and a question that captures left, right, if it's meaningful in Colombia.

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Efren Perez: Left, right, ideology and I would I would use that data for is to see whether there's actually a positive correlation

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Efren Perez: Between self ratings as conservative and stronger levels of Colombian identity and that would be that would be consistent with the idea that in Colombia national identity is is bound up a bit with with right of center ideology.

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Efren Perez: And you know I mean like that shouldn't take up

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Efren Perez: That's like anywhere from four to six questions right so it's not it's not a ton. But they can pay pay out pretty pretty well if

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Efren Perez: It's in line with what you're trying to show

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Roger Waldinger: Okay, I have some further thoughts when

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Roger Waldinger: We have two questions from the audience. So when we start with one of them so

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Roger Waldinger: The first is

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Roger Waldinger: Based on the research, is it possible the reaction to refugees is related to both the impact. So, can be there could happen on crime or on Colombian politics.

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Margaret Peters: Yeah, so we think

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Margaret Peters: That it is definitely an impact on Colombian politics for sure. So, um, there is of course. Yeah, lots of issues that are on the left, right, to mention, especially around we integration of leftists militant groups like the park and other groups.

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Margaret Peters: And so there's concern that

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Margaret Peters: Venezuelans would pull the country left and that seems to be apparent both seminar data and then also we looked a lot of newspapers and other stories and and then there is this concern over crime and as well. It doesn't

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Margaret Peters: As to have as large of a fact, though, as I'm concerned about politics, but of course crime because of the like leftist insurgency is somewhat tied into

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Margaret Peters: Politics as well because a lot of the credit. A lot of the militant groups are also engaged in praise criminal activities to get money. So it's a little all bound up

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Roger Waldinger: Okay thank you are ladies. Another question. What is the naturalization law of Columbia, and is there a path to citizenship for these Venezuelan migrants or refugees.

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Margaret Peters: dashes where we need the Columbia, an expert.

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Margaret Peters: I believe there is, um, there's like you said, so they definitely can vote in that and the local elections after five years, even without attaining citizenship and they've been given this fairy.

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Margaret Peters: That's like residency status right now and I believe that is a path to citizenship, but I'm not certain of that.

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Margaret Peters: Oh, Columbia signed on to the cart. The hand yet declaration.

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Margaret Peters: Which has a more expansive definition of who is a refugee. And so the Venezuelans while they don't necessarily fall under the 1951 convention definition they definitely fall under Carter Pena

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Margaret Peters: And so they should be then able to have an access to citizen to refugees as a status and citizenship through part Damien although that's not fully happening yet.

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Yang-Yang Zhou: There was also some measure about a year ago about

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Yang-Yang Zhou: Children of Venezuelan migrants, born in Colombia and soil have access to citizenship, so that could have been a heightened concern when we were doing our survey as well.

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Roger Waldinger: Okay. And then another question.

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Roger Waldinger: Have you considered the impact of the image of Maduro

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Margaret Peters: So Murray see a play as a follow up, what do you mean by Maduro like which part of his image.

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Roger Waldinger: Well, let's see.

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Roger Waldinger: My see. Oh, there you are. You sent me this question, could you could you elaborate either by I'm muting or sending me a message on the chance

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Roger Waldinger: Right. While we're waiting, just some further thoughts. I mean, one, you know, it seems to me that in the in the paper you're essentially assuming that the impact of the, I mean that the arrival of the refugees.

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Roger Waldinger: Is essentially, you know, an exemption to shock and and so it's the impact of the encounter or the knowledge of their presence that produces these attitudes, but

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Roger Waldinger: I mean, of course, Colombia is also a country of immigration. I mean, I think that there was a very sizable Colombian part of the long term migration and sizable Colombian population of Venezuela.

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Roger Waldinger: There's of course Colombian migration to the United States that some Colombian migration to to

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Roger Waldinger: To Europe and, and, of course, then there's a much larger

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Roger Waldinger: fraction of the population with context to former immigrants. So I'm wondering whether that is also something that you would want to consider, especially in the file or again if you think that there's some diffusion of

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Roger Waldinger: Whether it's information about migration or attitudes that might migration that comes about because of the experience of migration itself that might then feed back into what you're you're uncovering with the survey.

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Margaret Peters: And yeah, so

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Margaret Peters: So we had looked at, let me answer that question first. So um we excluded.

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Margaret Peters: From the sampling Colombian to help both citizenships and because we felt like they had a different

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Margaret Peters: Because they can move in between both societies and as a pilot recently of the Venezuelans survey, just because we have all these other projects about the force migrants themselves.

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Margaret Peters: And so we didn't necessarily want people who

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Margaret Peters: could claim citizenship in both countries and for various reasons. So, but the closest thing we have to that is we ask people about their

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Margaret Peters: Status as as displaced. Most of those individuals are internally displaced persons and we did find other it's not significant, and

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Margaret Peters: Conventional levels of pricing again like the 10% level and we just look at it again. So I remind myself. So you had a personal history of displacement and you were much more supportive of us not at the

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Margaret Peters: We don't have enough of them in the sample because they're a little hard to find.

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Margaret Peters: But there is this long history of going back and forth. And so, especially among those who are in Calcutta. That, of course, was an area where people were going back and forth all the time and

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Margaret Peters: Back in the day when Venezuela had gas people go over there to buy the gas all the time because it was like way cheaper and the border used to be much more open and throughout the crisis people from Venezuela. I've been coming to Calcutta to shop because

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Margaret Peters: That's where you can get good if you had hard cash and could go to Calcutta and buy products that weren't available in Venezuela.

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Margaret Peters: But like I said, we do have this these questions about remittances and stuff. And I can and I can look back at what else we have Mr. Like I don't totally remember everything that we have this, we have a tendency to torture. Our response.

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Roger Waldinger: Way to look

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Margaret Peters: At but we might have some other stuff in there. Alright, and

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Roger Waldinger: So because of the specification because he's left wing. I mean, does that

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Margaret Peters: Yeah, so, um, both Maduro and Chavez course were left wing. And so what's interesting will be find really interesting about this and

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Margaret Peters: And I don't remember. Remember Yang remembers how many about Venezuelans supported Chavez, but don't support Maduro because of course like nobody in our survey supports Maduro but I think some of them.

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Margaret Peters: And voted in the early days for especially like the first time job as was elected or some that early elections of Chavez.

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Margaret Peters: Were more supportive and so what you've actually seen at least among our sample of Venezuelans who've left is a real turn away from

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Margaret Peters: The Colombian media and focuses on Maduro as a leftists and all those Wayland being crazy leftist and saying like, we don't want to turn to Venezuela.

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Margaret Peters: The Venezuelans who are leaving are leaving in part because they hate what's going on in their country and in part because they

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Margaret Peters: Or they can't live. And so they hit the government or they hit the government and they can't live flow and clear the way because it goes, everything is fine little both

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Margaret Peters: But they're definitely leaving and and being pissed off amateur and because of that.

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Yang-Yang Zhou: Of our Venezuelan respondents who are eligible to vote for Chavez 50% reported that they did.

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Margaret Peters: Yeah, so there was much higher support for Thomas back in the day.

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Roger Waldinger: If you wanted to add something.

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Efren Perez: Um, so maybe I didn't really think about your guys's paper closely. I tried to start hearing you talk one

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Efren Perez: I think straightforward data collection that would be useful and on terms that scholars that have produced the prior literature would would would find credible is if you actually did do.

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Efren Perez: A news content analysis right to show that news media and Columbia are essentially highlighting the political aspect, more so than they are.

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Efren Perez: The sort of cultural, economic dimension. And I think that the winning pattern is not necessarily coverage no coverage but relatively more coverage what typically is thought of as a non starter a non issue, so to speak.

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Roger Waldinger: Okay. Here is another question. One thing that might damping sentiment against Venezuelan

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Roger Waldinger: cuties is the fact that Venezuela took in so many refugees from Columbia during the height of the armed conflict, it might be interesting to add something in the follow up that asked directly, whether respondents a family who fled to Venezuela during the conflict.

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Roger Waldinger: It's more suggestion in a question. I don't know. What do you have reactions to it.

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Margaret Peters: We did ask about family history of displacement, just in general, um, both to Venezuela and then just whether your family was just placed at all and Columbia, since it and we just have so few. So even though these are like date.

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Yang-Yang Zhou: Night. Yeah, they're very few individuals who have that. So it's

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Margaret Peters: Really hard to get at these effects of displacement, because even though they're large in total numbers.

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Margaret Peters: Columbia is a really large country. So not that many people, especially when I think about people who

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Margaret Peters: Are urban dwellers and happen urban drill, their family has been urban dwellers, because most of the complex happen in rural areas, so unfortunately we don't have a huge amount of power to get this

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Margaret Peters: But then, thanks, Frank, that's a great suggestion.

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Roger Waldinger: No, I, I guess I want one more question, in a way, inspired by a French distinction between being misinformed and uninformed, and that is whether

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Roger Waldinger: It's reasonable to think about media effects. I mean, here in the United States, we would assume that people listening to Fox News have a distinctive view.

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Roger Waldinger: Of immigration. I mean, we, there is a lot of and there is a lot of much of the research on the developed world does show that in general, people tend to

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Roger Waldinger: Have exaggerated views of the number of immigrants, so that being uninformed is definitely a you know a wide spread trait. But to what extent could one attribute being misinformed in the in the Colombian context immediate effects.

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Margaret Peters: And it's definitely the case with their this from the media.

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Margaret Peters: There is a lot of misinformation. So there's like the equivalent of pulling the fact in Colombia that goes in like fact checks.

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Margaret Peters: The news. And so there's just, there's a lot of. They have a lot America about like Canada is we

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Margaret Peters: Are they all left is our politicians buying them off.

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Margaret Peters: And so we've looked some at that

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Margaret Peters: On that I don't. So Roger you trying to get like thinking about different types of media that people consume so like we but like if I was running this in the US, I might look at what other people consume at MSNBC versus Fox News or just

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Roger Waldinger: media in general exactly know exactly the equivalent of Fox MSNBC.

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Margaret Peters: That's the militia questions.

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Margaret Peters: I don't know if there's a Colombian

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Roger Waldinger: Equivalent right

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Margaret Peters: Or or whether most people get it from like local newspapers, which might be harder.

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Margaret Peters: Everyone question. I was thinking about

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Roger Waldinger: Maybe this is more of a

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Margaret Peters: Like just discussion, um, was how much do you think ideology, please. Since you're more studies American politics more often. How much

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Margaret Peters: Do you think ideology place and the American context. I was thinking about like Ted Cruz calling undocumented immigrants, you know, illegal voters.

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Margaret Peters: In waiting and thinking back to Roger, maybe you have to think about the history and concerns about like in the big

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Margaret Peters: City is about the political machines, bringing in immigrants to go and those sorts of concerns.

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Margaret Peters: Do you think because we've been thinking about like what are other examples we can try to pull on and I think about like the US case may be, is to some extent and these issues get tied in to the politics.

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Efren Perez: Yeah. Either way, all of those things that Ted Cruz that are true. I'm just kidding.

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Just kidding.

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Efren Perez: So,

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Efren Perez: My sense of the literature is that

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Efren Perez: Party and ideology or are like, up until the 90s were not very useful ways to distinguish the mass public but they have since then, but I think

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Efren Perez: Part of the issue is that it gets treated as a background variable, right. So it's something that you control for but not necessarily an identity that can drive

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Efren Perez: Opposition to immigration in the way that you just described, right at the ladder is actually, that's just the sort of conceptual innovation waiting to happen.

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Efren Perez: And there's there's a lot going in sort of going for that possible innovation, you know, if you think about culture as stoking identities.

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Efren Perez: You can think of economics, too. Right. It's just that people think of themselves as in class terms but class is a group

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Efren Perez: And so as partisanship. So the tricky thing is, all of those things are going to be at least modestly correlated. And so this is why a framework like the one that I'm encouraging you to push on it would be useful, which is what can help explain

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Efren Perez: Why one of those attachments becomes prominent and salient and as sort of it as a substitution for these others so long and short. Yes. I think you can read and interpret some of what's been done in the US case as suggestive of

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Efren Perez: ideology or partisanship. More generally, becoming a clear way to be market opponents from from supporters

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Efren Perez: And then the other thing would just be it depends on what you think of as as partisanship and I view it as it's just another group that you belong to and that is privileged by the institutions that we have, but you know I don't go around thinking of myself as a democrat all the time.

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Efren Perez: Be exhausted.

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Roger Waldinger: Okay, well, other other comments from the audience.

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Roger Waldinger: If not have any final thoughts from from authors.

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Margaret Peters: This is super helpful.

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Roger Waldinger: Okay, so thanks to to Maggie Yang Yang and Alicia for great paper. Thank you so much for a wonderful comment.

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Roger Waldinger: Thanks to everybody who has joined us. I think there's been a great discussion. And as I mentioned before,

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Roger Waldinger: We will reconvene next Friday at 12 O'clock for a discussion of a new book edited by lazy abrigo we are not dreamers undocumented scholars theorize undocumented light in the United States. So thank you so much and hoping to see you, or. See you next week. Okay, have a

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Roger Waldinger: good weekend. Bye.


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