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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): I'm really happy to be here and I'm really thankful for the work that you and Roger and Marjorie and Sophia and Warren have all put into organizing this for us.

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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): The book has been out for just a short period of time. So we're excited to share with everyone. I'm going to get us started. And let me share this screen so that you can

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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): See

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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): Basically, the book is this wonderful collection of 10 chapters 10 different authors Genevieve, and I wrote the introduction.

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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): And you're going to hear today from Joel Sethi about his chapter and from getting them on the Via about her. So I'll tell you just a little bit about the other chapters.

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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): A couple of them take on the university as an institution and the experiences of students that are not the warm and fuzzy ones that so many of us have been writing about

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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): Trying to think critically about the role of the university and creating what we came to think of as dreamers.

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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): Some of the other chapters focus on rethinking citizenship, from the perspective of people who are left out either because we've come to think of

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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): Only certain groups as being deserving enough for citizenship or people who are trying to redefine it for themselves and understanding their own worth and what they contribute in this country.

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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): There's also a series of chapters that look at the messiness of life the way that

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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): Undocumented identity is not a singular thing it interacts with several other aspects of identity sometimes is not the most important part of someone's identity or not the most important part of how they determine their day to day life and and that allows for

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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): Various ways of living that that can include for a whole human being. Everything from pain and anguish, but also to joy and to love.

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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): And and so the the last set of chapters really look at that, that complexity of life. And there's also an appendix. That includes some of the key words.

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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): In these areas of study. I want to tell you a little bit about the how the project came to be.

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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): So Genevieve, and I really have been in this experiencing this from different perspectives for a long time now.

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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): First, as people who are scholars and and researchers in this area publishing about the experiences of undocumented young people as activists as students as people who live in this country and then

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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): Very importantly I think something that we want to highlight is that we do this also as allies as people who accompany the political struggle.

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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): Whether for undocumented students, specifically, or for the undocumented migrant movement, more broadly, and that that's important. And we'll talk more about why that matters.

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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): Those first two parts of our experience then shape the reality that undocumented students in the universities where we work have sought us out.

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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): To to talk through ideas they want to be researchers and they want to be the authors of the theories that we should be considering. And so we've done Honors Theses and MA theses and

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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): different research projects that have brought us very close to the experiencing of witnessing the writing process and the challenges that come with that.

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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): And understanding that writing is challenging for everybody, but in a very particular way for people who have been ignoring to the best of their ability, all of those legal structures.

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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): That would make it impossible to function if they were really thinking about that all the time. They've been doing that. And they've been navigating these institutions and doing it.

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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): In very powerful ways and then they decide to take on a research project that forces them to sit with all of that reality and to analyze it and to take it apart in ways that would be paralyzing for anybody right so in

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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): Experiencing that multiple times, we came together, discuss what it would mean

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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): Because we were witnessing the brilliance of their ideas and because we knew that the field should be shaped by this, what would it would mean to

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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): Create a project that would allow for their voices to flourish and to join the scholarly conversation.

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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): So the project is really about that, about opening doors about facilitating publication because students are doing this work all around the country, but really trying to to

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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): Push it into the conversation at the level of the scholarship, because it will expand the field. And that's the really important part

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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): We want to be clear that all of this is an intellectual project, but it is also an ethical project. And in that process becomes a political project.

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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): And so we tried to be cognizant of all of those things throughout the process every stage of the process, including these book talks.

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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): And we understanding the meal liberal context of higher education now really want to take a stand with this book and what it can represent for how we mentor people who are the most impacted and fields that we write in

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): Thank you. Lacey so we also wanted to share a little bit about what we see as the main contributions of the of the volume.

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): The book. We're not dreamers is a methodological intervention and probably a very obvious way, but it's also in a lot of ways and empirical and an analytical intervention. So what we were seeing is that

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): In the world of higher education, access to higher education began to shift for undocumented students

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): This is particularly true in a place like California right so as undocumented students began to gain access as undocumented young people, I should say began to get access to the institution of higher education.

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): Through a series of course of legislative shifts and policy changes that they themselves brought about in many ways through their activism.

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): We began to see that undocumented young people began to be position then in a different kind of way, as I'm developing scholars and theorists of the undocumented experience.

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): At the same time, the field as a whole was not really yielding to this shift right, the, the, the field as a whole was not nimble enough and thinking about how to

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): Track consider and really recognize the contributions that undocumented students who maybe had been just a couple of years prior, you know, a document of high school students.

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): Sort of knocking on the door trying to figure out how to chart a path towards higher education, how they themselves were coming to be constituted and situated actually as

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): Knowledge and theory producers of the documented experience. So we're not dreamers is to the best of our knowledge. The only edited collection of empirical and theoretical work by and documented and recently and documented scholars

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): We felt really important that there is great work that happens around testimonial we felt it was really important to be able to

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): Acknowledge that and also push beyond that to make a different kind of contribution which is really situated in the empirical and the theoretical work of these young scholars as central. So that's the methodological intervention, the empirical and the analytical intervention is

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): Perhaps most evident in the title of the book. So there is to sort of things that I want to identify in terms of these interventions.

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): The first is that so much of the work about a documented young people so much of the intellectual work about and documented young people really focuses on the educational realm really is situated in a contextual way in the space of schooling education and higher education in particular.

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): The work in this volume really pushes in a very explicit way beyond that. Right. Pushing beyond the realm of education to examine the ways that document and actors.

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): Really are moving through the spaces of daily life. Right. And much of the way that Lacey was sharing earlier and looking at the different chapters.

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): But also really importantly, not just moving through those spaces of daily life in what we consider it sort of you know undocumented life and the United States.

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): But also being made and remaking in turn those spaces in really fundamental ways and we see that and the examination of that and the and the clarity and the illumination of that as a really critical point of

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): Departure and expansion from the previous work that's been done. The second piece is a really clear push back on the dreamer narrative.

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): I think folks probably are familiar with this idea, right, the idea that young and educated undocumented migrants are more deserving of citizenship somehow than other members of the undocumented community.

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): Uh, we didn't actually anticipate this on the front end. The book had a different title for the first many, many months of existence, and as the scholars and authors and contributors started to

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): solidify their pieces we saw the emergence of this very clear political coalescing around pushing back on this Dreamer narrative right what came forward and when we began to see very quickly was a political articulation of a politic that asserts that dignity.

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): That citizenship, the human rights that civil rights cannot be defined by and constrained by sort of these metrics of

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): Age and education right and a very clear parts of political articulation that all migrants deserve justice that all 11 million

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): Deserve dignity, human rights and civil rights. And so the title emerged from that sort of collaborative discussion process with the contributors

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): And I think for all of us really represents one of the things that we're most excited about in terms of the of the volume as a whole. And one of the things that we see as the central contribution.

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): So moving on from here. What is, what is our hope for this volume and I'm thrilled that you'll be able to hear from two of the authors of the chapter authors in just a moment.

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): But to sort of frame it in broader terms, you know, the book is absolutely a labor of love and a collection of what we believe to be some of the most important scholarship on citizenship and illegality.

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): Today I want to really emphasize that point, we believe that this work has the potential to shift the fields that we, that we are that we are working within and writing within we wanted to recognize the contributors as up and coming scholars. We wanted to be able to really

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): Encourage give a mandate, we feel strongly that these are the words, these are the authors. These are the scholars that we should be citing when we write these are the these are the pieces that we should be assigning our classes.

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): We believe that this has the potential to move the field towards a more critical scholarship that is inclusive of the inclusive of the voices that are most impacted by immigration policy.

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): We, of course, also because as Lacey shared all of us involved in this project are

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): Are thinkers and scholars were also have and from and coming from and trained within and products of movement work.

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): So we also integrate explicitly hope that this volume can be in service of the work that's happening on the ground to advance the cause of migrant rights.

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): And very particularly we want to encourage as a collective process all of us to stop thinking of documented young people, not only as the objects of research. Right. But as potential scholars and experts who can help to shape these fields.

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): Lisa, you're on mute.

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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): So we want to

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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): Just really emphasize once again the ethics and the politics of this process.

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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): Based on what we've experienced as scholars as mentors as mentees at different moments, right, that that mentorship is a key part of the process.

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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): As a form of a company meant to the authors as a form of a commitment that our jobs include helping them think through their ideas to get them to feel full ownership over that to to then have these contributions to make into the field.

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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): We also include that. Like I mentioned, through all aspects of this project, including the fact that all of the royalties.

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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): Will go to an organization that the group decided together collectively we make as many of the decisions as possible collectively

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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): To go to the organization and Motorola, which, together we researched and felt was an organization that is doing critically important work.

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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): With refugees, asylum seekers from all around the world who who in some ways are connected to the groups that we write about and care about in this scholarship, but also have been left out of so much of that conversation.

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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): So again, ways to keep expanding what we think is important in this field and ways to keep contributing with our work beyond publishing in a peer reviewed journal or something like that.

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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): So we, we thank you we really want you to hear from the authors now. And in case you want to be in touch with us. We're active on Twitter and you can find that there but

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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): Definitely, please, you know, check out the chapters. Think about how to incorporate all of this work. I've already included in all of my citation software. So I know this is the work that I'm going to be citing and using to move the field forward. Thanks.

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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): So I either Joel or Catalina if you're if you're ready to jump in.

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Joel Sati: I guess I'll jump in.

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Joel Sati: So,

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Joel Sati: First of all thanks to

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Joel Sati: Thanks for having, having me and

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Joel Sati: I'm really honored to be a part of this part of this event. And I also want to give a special shout out to Jennifer amazing for

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Joel Sati: Opening up for you know the form that is the additive volume and also for being supportive of me and also the other scholars that are part of this volume.

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Joel Sati: And in

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Joel Sati: Thinking about

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Joel Sati: I guess I wanted to bring it back to the idea of honoring the immigrant rights movement and trying to do work that not only honors them, but also moves it forward.

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Joel Sati: That laid the foundation for for my chapter because at the time that it was written. It was at the point where you know Dhaka had been established, and there still seems to be a little bit of a

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Joel Sati: Of a stalling in terms of even though Trump was elected, they're still have I still didn't get the sense that there was any momentum moving forward from Dhaka into something that was more comprehensive

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Joel Sati: And I was really interested as to why that's the case. And so I'm in looking at the sociological literature on framing, which is actually

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Joel Sati: Not a literature that was familiar with because so I'm I'm training philosophy. And so I kind of came across this literature, almost by happenstance. But in looking at it and trying to think about the importance of it or what it really shows about

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Joel Sati: The immigrant rights movement and where it could be and where it is and why it's not getting to where it could be looking at metaphor was actually a really important

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Joel Sati: Intervention, to my thinking. And I wanted to

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Joel Sati: Develop a comprehensive, or at least a comprehensive enough account to at least begin discussions as to how to move the member rights movement forward. Hence this paper. And so, in looking at. So the title of the paper is other borders the legal as normative metaphor and

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Joel Sati: In looking at metaphor I had come across this book. It's called metaphors we live by, by two authors George Lake off and Mark Johnson and the argument was that

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Joel Sati: Not only, not only was metaphor, a critical part of how we think, generally, but it's also an important part of how we move forward or how we conceive of

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Joel Sati: Various potential realities and in the political context, thinking about the metaphors that structure political discussion play an important role in how we think of what is what is possible through the political process and

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Joel Sati: And it was there that I i was so I looked into until if there was any except literature on immigration and and metaphor. And I came across this article alien language by Professor

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Joel Sati: In Oregon named Ken. Ken of putting him Parmenter i think i think that's his name.

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Joel Sati: And there was, there were a couple of things that I that I got from the article that I thought were really interesting and the first was looking at the term alien now alien had been a term is a term that has had

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Joel Sati: It's a legal term of art. I mean, it's for me it's, I mean, it's like gone back to us to like

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Joel Sati: I don't know the 18th century, I mean the Alien and Sedition Acts of 1790s, is something that I think about and

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Joel Sati: And it's been a legal term of art and up until you know the mid 20th century. That's pretty much what it was. And in the mid 20th century when it was like the golden era of sci fi writing and there needed to be a term that that I'm captured a fundamental foreignness

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Joel Sati: Alien was the term that was that was um it was selected and I always

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Joel Sati: I never really had thought about the connection between alien as a legal term and alien as sort of like this green over like dark eyed green sort of like weird being

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Joel Sati: But it. But the more I thought about it. It makes sense. Um,

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Joel Sati: Because one of the things that I found very as someone was undocumented, and especially as someone who is undocumented and for all intensive purposes conventionally a dreamer. I still couldn't shake what it was about illegality, over and above, not having papers that

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Joel Sati: That signified this sort of fundamental fairness, this sort of idea that

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Joel Sati: I am always outside of you know this society and so

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Joel Sati: In thinking about that and thinking about, you know, that kind of that kind of metaphor. It ended up solidifying a lot of things for me and

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Joel Sati: And as I looked into, you know, various other metaphors that that you know exist in the immigration space.

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Joel Sati: Um, so, like, for example, if you know you think of the if you think of unauthorized migration or immigration coming from the southern border as an invasion it sorta or if you think of it as an infestation it

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Joel Sati: It makes the idea of detention deportation more palatable because those courses of action sort of meet this kind of like immune response to what has been conceived of as an infestation and

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Joel Sati: So, so it was one. So, so that was one way to think about it. And then I, you know, thinking about how that

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Joel Sati: So this is was sort of like the kind of political environment that immigrant rights, sort of like is contending with and it's like really difficult.

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Joel Sati: And it seemed like really difficult to combat that. But it was also interested as to whether or not there were metaphors that were internal to the immigrant rights movement that were pernicious as well and

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Joel Sati: There. I mean, you know, I focused on the dreamer narrative and actually the reason why I focused on that was partly

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Joel Sati: It's partly historical in the set. So, like, at the time, but this paper was still sort of like getting I'm getting sharpened. This was when Docker was rescinded. And I remember

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Joel Sati: Being on Twitter. The weekend before it was being extended and seeing like a lot of these discussions on, you know, save Docker because these people, you know, these kids came in as children, they are documented through no fault of their own, yada, yada, and

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Joel Sati: And I for a minute. I was like, Well, I thought we had gone past this. But I was also interested in seeing the kind of work that it does. And so, in thinking about the dreamer, as this kind of like, you know, pure being. But also kind of like a victim of circumstance.

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Joel Sati: It makes the dreamer very sympathetic figure, but it also

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Joel Sati: Makes it also vilifies. What are the putative causes of why the DREAMers are where they are. So if you're thinking, but the DREAMers are without fault, then

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Joel Sati: Who is who is with fault. It's like their parents or, you know, if people who are dreamers. Are you know deserving

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Joel Sati: Of regularization or deserving of relief from deportation then conversely, the undeserving are the non dreamers or the people with

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Joel Sati: Criminal Records and things of that nature. And so what now makes it more difficult to move from dreamers to a comprehensive immigration reform, it's difficult to do that because it's been constructed in such a way that

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Joel Sati: It's it's it's separated the deserving from the supposedly undeserving when the goal was to get everybody to um

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Joel Sati: To a point to a point where to a point of like immigration relief. Um, and even from like a big picture perspective and thinking about

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Joel Sati: What the term of documented means and thinking about documents as the as the point of contention for immigrant rights.

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Joel Sati: There's also a way in which that framing doesn't get us all the way I remember in 2012 when Docker came out, I was actually

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Joel Sati: I was working in Maryland, at the time, and I was among the people that were trained to fill out applications and

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Joel Sati: I remember the first day there was like a line going around the block. And it was like parents and their kids and then they had, you know, they had report cards they had bills they had, you know, like

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Joel Sati: Documents doctors appointment. And I was thinking, well, I mean they have documents. So it's so it seemed like there, you know, at first glance, they're not really documented and the more I thought about it and

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Joel Sati: It came to me is like, it's just a matter of what documents matter, not necessarily the fact that they don't have documents. And so if the goal is to just focus on the documents. Sure.

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Joel Sati: You know it's theoretically possible to get people papers, but you know, I'm a black immigrant. I also sort of got the sense that even if I got papers, it wouldn't really matter because, you know, I'm a black person in America and so

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Joel Sati: So that's what so that ended up sort of solidifying like a kind of so that kind of metaphorical frame of looking at documents is sort of like the end all be all of citizenship.

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Joel Sati: And that's sort of like where I am currently in my work and looking at the kind of like the potential or lack thereof of documents as the determinant of whether or not a member is a successful around

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Joel Sati: So to close.

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Joel Sati: I think that looking at how we construct our narratives

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Joel Sati: Is a very important part of frying it sort of very important part of constructing the world that we want to build

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Joel Sati: And also it's an important way to construct the kind of outcomes that we want to have. And that's, that was my hope in terms of like what intervention I envisioned for this paper, um, and I'll talk about that more.

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David FitzGerald: Thanks very much, Joel. And now we will have 10 minutes from Katrina Valdivia

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Carolina Valdivia: Great, thank you. Thank you. Set the and thank you as well to Lacey and Genevieve and the organizers of today's event, of course.

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Carolina Valdivia: So my chapter is titled and documented young adults heightened vulnerability in the Trump area.

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Carolina Valdivia: And it focuses on the mental health consequences of growing up on documented, particularly that during this current political climate.

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Carolina Valdivia: And so for this chapter. It's based on in depth interviews that I conducted with 52 immigrant young adults as in this is part of a larger book manuscript project where I'm exploring the consequences of immigration enforcement.

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Carolina Valdivia: But for today, I really wanted to highlight three main points from the chapter.

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Carolina Valdivia: So first I in the chapter I discuss how news about immigration policies and enforcement practices which are constant and during the current political moment.

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Carolina Valdivia: Are really not merely journalistic accounts. And so through the lens of undocumented young adults and their families news reports instead come to represent painful reminders about their vulnerability to deportation.

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Carolina Valdivia: And so the new cycle really then comes to be experienced as a constant source of stress trauma on society and fear.

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Carolina Valdivia: As young adults are finding themselves consciously confronting the worst case scenario which oftentimes is undergoing family separation and everything, of course, that it would entail.

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Carolina Valdivia: And this was explained quite vividly by the only guy who said that can recipient and who story a featured at the start of the chapter.

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Carolina Valdivia: And so she shared, I was thinking maybe I need to go back to therapy and I have never been on medicine before, but maybe it's time because it's a lot to take in, emotionally

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Carolina Valdivia: This is definitely very stress inducing I mean this country is going to kill me have a heart attack or something because it's constantly being on alert constantly being in fight or flight mode.

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Carolina Valdivia: And so here we don't go is reflecting on the changes with respect to immigration policy and enforcement practices that are unfolding under the current administration, but she was also reflecting on the ongoing uncertainty about background.

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Carolina Valdivia: With this in mind, I also wanted to mention I say also note in the introduction of the chapter itself.

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Carolina Valdivia: Is that it's not so much that immigration enforcement is a somehow a new phenomenon are very unique to the Trump administration.

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Carolina Valdivia: I think, as many of us know the Obama administration alone deported a record number of undocumented community members, more than 2 million

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Carolina Valdivia: And so even though that's that's a fact and we may not be seeing quantitative differences between administration's with respect to the number of deportations.

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Carolina Valdivia: For example, the current political climate has undoubtedly yielded a qualitatively different experience of what it means to be undocumented in the US.

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Carolina Valdivia: As families are confronting not only the very real palpable fear of apprehension, but also the rise of anti immigrant sentiment.

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Carolina Valdivia: rapidly changing enforcement tactics on the ground diminishing opportunities for some type of immigration relief. And then, of course, all of this is compounded by the current reality of the pandemic and

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Carolina Valdivia: Everything that's that's been happening with the elections, etc. And so for many families everyday life can quite literally feel like a constant attack.

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Carolina Valdivia: Sophia, who was also featured on the chapter, and it's a legal assistant on the darker beneficiary and whose father was actually previously deported.

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Carolina Valdivia: She shared after the elections, I felt like it was just every week that we were getting at least one phone call that everybody was getting detained.

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Carolina Valdivia: And oh my god and what is going on. She expressed and obviously that causes a lot of anxiety.

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Carolina Valdivia: It was a very emotional time those very first few weeks and even now, it still feels like an emotional rollercoaster, like we okay for a little bit and then the next horrible thing happens.

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Carolina Valdivia: And then she elaborated on how this reality is affecting her mental health.

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Carolina Valdivia: She mentioned it takes us all, even though it's not my family members. I don't know these people. But it's just since I've been in that position. I feel like it hits me the most at work and obviously I can't cry at work. So, you know, sometimes I go home and I'm just sad for the day.

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Carolina Valdivia: And so this brings me to the third point that I wanted to highlight

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Carolina Valdivia: And that is with this chapter. I really wanted to dive deeper into how we understand them until health consequences of immigration policies and enforcement practices.

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Carolina Valdivia: And so with this chapter I documented not only increased feelings of anxiety, fear, stress and depression but also a wide range of psychosomatic symptoms. And this included stomach pains eye twitches headaches, etc.

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Carolina Valdivia: And so overall, my hope for, for the book and also for my chapter. More specifically,

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Carolina Valdivia: Is that really the voices of young adults featured in the chapter will encourage us to pay closer attention to how the portability is being constantly produced and we produced on the ground.

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Carolina Valdivia: Whether that means to news reports, when we're about rates or information about community arrest checkpoints, etc.

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Carolina Valdivia: And the effects that this is having through the lens of those who are directly affected and all in there, but I am also happy to address any questions or talk about any of this further in the Q AMP a

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David FitzGerald: Good.

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David FitzGerald: Thank you. Now we will have a comment from Professor Francisco in Venice. This

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Frances Contreras: Hi, good afternoon. It's a real honor to be with you all today to discuss the important work.

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Frances Contreras: We are not dreamers, edited by Dr. Roberto and Dr. Nicholas Gonzalez, I have followed their scholarship and careers.

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Frances Contreras: Really for some time now and see this volume as extending their already impactful work and contributions to the field of sociology education.

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Frances Contreras: Latinx studies ethnic studies and public policy. Yes, that's a mouthful, but they're impacting a whole lot of fields.

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Frances Contreras: I particularly appreciate their concerted effort to include an array of scholars

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Frances Contreras: That have had varied experiences with being a documented. I think that that's an important contribution and reframing of the issue.

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Frances Contreras: This approach serves to validate and essentially positions and documented scholars as theorists of this important work oftentimes in the academy.

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Frances Contreras: Under outdated and hegemonic paradigms. This approach is framed as a deficit, rather than a value added approach or research rooted in a model of empowerment

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Frances Contreras: The scholars call out and own their expertise that stems from their own personal journeys and experiences and as the volume editor's note quote explicit explicitly resist the dreamer narrative and quote

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Frances Contreras: That in many ways the approach taken by activists and immigrant rights organizations to legitimize the right of undocumented students to remain here in the United States.

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Frances Contreras: Has really been based on their identity as Americans and representing a dream.

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Frances Contreras: And I love the fact that they critique this this conceptualization because when in reality the dream or American dream was never intended for this marginalized group nor promised to minority communities. It is an ideal rather than a reality.

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Frances Contreras: In this moment when we continue to witness the dehumanization and marginalization of undocumented individuals in this nation.

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Frances Contreras: We are not dreamers offers a highly relevant and critical array of perspectives that make up the varied experiences and intersection of identities of a community that continues to be targeted.

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Frances Contreras: By presidential administrations. Yes, plural underserved, as well as excluded from basic human rights in this country.

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Frances Contreras: So it's not enough to say this is a shameful moment in our nation's history without intentionally attempting to inform discourse theory policy and activism.

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Frances Contreras: This book attempts to elevate the conversation by presenting a level of authenticity and first hand experience navigating legal status in this country as students, scholars

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Frances Contreras: And across their multiple intersecting identities in chapter one, I'm going to focus on the two chapters of those scholars that are here today.

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Frances Contreras: Other borders whole society sets the stage for unpacking how we frame undocumented immigrants and political discourse and through the immigrant rights movement.

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Frances Contreras: I thought that this was an incredibly important contribution to this discourse.

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Frances Contreras: Dr. So it raises the role that metaphors play in shaping policy for undocumented immigrants how metaphor shape how we think about policy and frame the issue.

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Frances Contreras: In this chapter, he offers a critical discussion and reflection of select metaphors that have dominated our thinking and national discourse, including illegal immigrant as alien

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Frances Contreras: Immigrant as dreamer, and an immigrant is dreamer. These are the two that I want to focus on the former which I have long been critical of and do not use my scholarship

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Frances Contreras: Serves to dehumanize immigrants in this country here, the author utilizes case law and the courts to convey how the term quote alien when utilized by the courts has served to normalize its use in the legal sector, the author provides the same critique.

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Frances Contreras: I noted and and basically calls out that this metaphor is rooted in racist nativism

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Frances Contreras: And finally, the author proposes a critique of the dreamer narrative connecting it to the immigration debate.

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Frances Contreras: He argues that the dreamer narrative undocumented immigrants were forced well under the dreamer narrative undocumented immigrants. This is his quote undocumented immigrants were forced to grovel for humanity that ought to be presupposed so him packs, this idea of

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Frances Contreras: The Dreamer narrative as having to prove their worthiness to fit a profile of being a high achiever a hard worker.

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Frances Contreras: And really fitting into the capitalist framework that dominates our perception of who deserves who is deserving and worthy of citizenship I resonated with this chapter, and I'm personally so grateful for the careful and thoughtful analysis that went into this work.

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Frances Contreras: Now, in chapter six. The piece by God, or universe media Dr Valdivia titled undocumented youth adults heightened vulnerability in the Trump era.

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Frances Contreras: This author provides us with first hand accounts of the anxiety and stress the policy environment has played on young adults in this nation.

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Frances Contreras: She carefully lays out the policy changes that occur during the Trump administration as a backdrop to the ethnographic study highlighted in the chapter.

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Frances Contreras: By exploring the role of family members and those who have been deported or have immediate family members deported.

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Frances Contreras: Or those that are undocumented she highlights how they live in perpetual fear of them being deported.

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Frances Contreras: And given her own experience of growing up in a transporter region Dr Valdivia brings a first hand knowledge of the experiences undocumented students and families face.

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Frances Contreras: And really highlights that in this chapter. She brings that to bear by focusing on undocumented students in San Diego, where I live, a home right I actually live right on the border.

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Frances Contreras: She really, you know, highlights and brings to light the transport experience of these young adults.

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Frances Contreras: And their constant reminders of their immigration status. And if any of you have been to San Diego or have spent time or lived on the border.

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Frances Contreras: You will see the enhanced presence of the border patrol that purposely target Latino dominant neighborhoods.

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Frances Contreras: And she raises that the level of profiling that exists in these neighborhoods and how it occurs with, let me go.

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Frances Contreras: And how it really occurs frequently towards immigrant communities, particularly now in this political climate.

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Frances Contreras: And this she argues places them in a tenuous position of perpetual anxiety and fear and she just noted that the levels of stress.

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Frances Contreras: And I think that that's another really significant contribution of this work is that she's one of the first, if not the first to really call out

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Frances Contreras: Something that seldom discussed in the literature. When we think about the plight of undocumented immigrants.

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Frances Contreras: And that is the role that the political climate and policy arena is having on the mental health and well being of these young adults and as a parent. I distinctly remember I'm a parent of two young children.

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Frances Contreras: And I distinctly remember the day the president was elected and taking my children to school and seeing parents and teachers and children crying because a person who hated Mexicans was elected and placed in the White House. And that's debatable, but I will say that that's a distinct

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Frances Contreras: Experience that sits with many families and it causes incredible stress that has lasted

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Frances Contreras: Really not only throughout the course of this administration, but as she noted previous administrations and calling out the mental health.

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Frances Contreras: You know, has implications for practice, meaning we need to pay attention to how we're serving these communities and whether or not we are providing those mental health services for students and their families.

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Frances Contreras: I would be remiss if I didn't mention other chapters that stood out while I read the volume but the reality is that they all did the chapters by good SEO ones are gone, Gabriella Gabriella Gabriella monocle Gabriella Garcia cruise

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Frances Contreras: Medea Amit is Audrey services Lucien Leon got the Joslin Maldonado domingues they all convey unique perspectives and critiques related to health scholars have framed the undocumented students and young adult experiences and their families.

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Frances Contreras: They all offer new dimensions to understanding the documented experience in the US hostile context.

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Frances Contreras: And finally, while I appreciate any in the book with a chapter on a document equipped parenting and the need for reexamining conceptions of the family within this community, in particular, I thought this was an incredible chapter, by the way.

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Frances Contreras: I would have loved to chapter 11 where the authors of the volume or the leads lay out their thoughts on what is needed immigration reform.

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Frances Contreras: Taking a cue from the critical views raised in this book related to metaphors intersection ality the need to acknowledge core identity and challenging existing familial norms.

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Frances Contreras: So here's some questions, I offer and this could be booked to how might this book offer a reset of sorts, on the immigration rights movement today.

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Frances Contreras: Who better to guide these discussions than these lead editors and authors and I offer this minor critique to encourage it's really actually less than a critique as of what's needed next

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Frances Contreras: To encourage the authors to continue to push the envelope and inform the immigration reform debate.

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Frances Contreras: That is your voices that are exactly needed in this space in this time and in these forums will also informing academies of higher education and K through 12 education.

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Frances Contreras: And then review my notes. Yesterday I couldn't sleep. I literally couldn't sleep, which is rare for me because with two young kids, I'm exhausted.

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Frances Contreras: But I was still sitting with the discussions presented in this volume and that is what all authors hope for in their work.

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Frances Contreras: That incites a fire in the reader to challenge their own way of thinking their own sense making of the world around them.

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Frances Contreras: We are not dreamers did that for me as I'm sure it will do for others, I congratulate doctors up and I go and I go to Amazon sellers for

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Frances Contreras: Serving as a thought leaders on this timely and critical project. Thank you for the gift of knowledge passion insight and motivation to do more. I know I'll be using this volume in my class in the spring of 2021

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Frances Contreras: But I think that the book highlights how we can all exercise our own agency to inform these discussions policies and everyday practices.

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Frances Contreras: And really challenge how our nation continues to dehumanize and documented hint there. Thank you so much for the opportunity to comment on your incredible work.

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David FitzGerald: Thank you, Francis. We now have about 10 minutes for each of the authors to respond in the meanwhile, for everyone else who's participating in this event. If you'd like to go ahead and start.

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Frances Contreras: typing your

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David FitzGerald: questions into the Q AMP a function and then we'll have a round discussion and after everyone's had a couple of minutes each day to go through

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David FitzGerald: And so perhaps we could start with you again Lacey and then following the order of your presentations in a in a quick two minute response to Francis

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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): Will say I just want to say thank you. That was really wonderful we we did think of this as an interdisciplinary project and and it was so based on everyone's training, but also in the way the book came together and so

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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): It's really validating to know that it's useful for an education scholar.

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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): And, you know, let the next studies and all the rest of it that you mentioned.

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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): I agree that we we really need to rethink it's a moment to rethink what we're doing in the movement, what we're doing and the scholarship

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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): And and that's why it's been such an exciting project to work on with all of these up and coming you know scholars to who are who are leading the way and I'm happy to contribute with them as the leaders of this

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): Thank you so much Dr confident as your, your insights are really, really validating and really helpful as we think about what it means to put this book out into the world right now in this really, really particular political moment. And you know, I guess.

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): The major thought that I have the main thought that I have after hearing your comments is

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): Is that it reinforces to me this question of what this all means right now and what we do with this right now and

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): What I'm thinking about is that, you know, I really feel very deep in my bones that in moments like this, you know, and I'm and I'm

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): From two of us thought I know what it means to grow up on the border. Um, I grew up on the border and very particular moment in time in the 90s during

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): Operation gatekeeper. And so much of what was happening. Ben is what is happening today and thinking about the building of the bigger, better, more lethal border fence and what it means to the families who are trapped

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): On either and on both sides of that of that fence and

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): You know, I think back to who I was at 14 and 15 mobilizing around proposition 187 and operation gatekeeper and I think about

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): The work of these incredible young scholars today and it makes me think about the ways that in moments and when there are such deep and profound attacks. It's really logical to feel that constriction.

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): In sort of the legal and political realm and to adopt that constriction in our own imaginations and thinking about what is possible and and I feel that today. I've felt that for the past four years, there is this, this kind of

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): There is this kind of very tenuous grasp on like, you know, we know we're being beaten down and like just let the beating not be so hard and I'm pushing myself right now on the cusp of this next election. I'm

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): To think in an expansive way and the work of these authors really helped me do that is I think an expansive way to be able to say, you know,

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): Right now, we can feel like we're holding on to something. Because, because we're about to to lose Dhaka and let it slip between our fingers.

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): But actually, instead of trying to grasp onto this thing to be able to use this as an opening to say Doc is not enough. It was never enough.

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): And our vision for immigrant rights, our vision for what policy change and and let it legislative change and and for what the dignity of human rights for all 11 million can look like

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): Can actually surpass what it is that we're trying to hold on to. And so, to me, the work of these young scholars

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): Your comments really underscore this idea that this is the moment for us to be daring radical revolutionary visionary and in thinking in new ways about what it is that we not only asked for. But demand and and bring about so

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): I thank you for your comments and I am yeah ready to do the work.

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David FitzGerald: Yeah.

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Joel Sati: Yeah, um,

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Joel Sati: Thank you, Dr controls for those wonderful comments, um,

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Joel Sati: In thinking about, like, and thinking about where

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Joel Sati: work like this can move forward, or at least how

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Joel Sati: I think I can advance that work. It was doing something like this that actually really motivated me to go to law school and to think of

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Joel Sati: Master gay legality and all forms and one of the things that

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Joel Sati: I have been interested in. I mean, is

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Joel Sati: So there's a legal scholar. His name is Cesaro quote Mr. Garcia and others, and he has a he has this three part definition of immigration that I found out that it's actually like really structured

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Joel Sati: Not only my work, but it's also motivated me to move in this direction. So the first definition is looking at the immigration consequences of criminal convictions.

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Joel Sati: The second definition is the criminalization of certain aspects of migration or the increasing criminalization of certain aspects of migration. And then the third one is the increasing use of criminal enforcement tactics for immigration enforcement and

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Joel Sati: As we've gone on in this administration and things like family separation or detention at the border is gone.

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Joel Sati: It has really solidified

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Joel Sati: The, the idea that illegality and combating it was was never about immigration status.

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Joel Sati: It was never about papers and

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Joel Sati: And focusing on papers wasn't going to go anywhere near solving the problem and

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Joel Sati: I think so. So

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Joel Sati: In terms of where I think this work can go I think looking at this kind of

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Joel Sati: collision between criminal law and immigration law. I think that that's that's a really important avenue for for scholars to go to and you know that's that's where I'm at least for me, I think.

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Joel Sati: I'm gonna come and go next.

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Carolina Valdivia: Yeah, thank you so much for your insight flowing really careful reading of the book chapters.

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Carolina Valdivia: I think one thing that I would add to the conversation. And this is more specific with respect to immigration reform, which is something was also bringing up

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Carolina Valdivia: In terms of the types of policies that we need changed.

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Carolina Valdivia: I think one of the things that's often missing from policy discussions is the need to better address the unique challenges that are facing families were a member has been previously reported

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Carolina Valdivia: Because it's very difficult if not virtually impossible for members who've been deported to be able to adjust their status.

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Carolina Valdivia: And this is, regardless of the reason for their deportation. So a lot of the families that I interviewed

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Carolina Valdivia: The member was deported because of fraud by an immigration lawyer or the neighbor reporting the family to immigration.

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Carolina Valdivia: Officers or, as we know, oftentimes the if you come into direct contact with the police that can need to be in apprehended by immigration officers and subsequently deported.

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Carolina Valdivia: And so really a wide range of reasons why people were deported. But once you've been deported essentially

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Carolina Valdivia: You're, you're, you're often barred from returning to the United States. This could range from like five years 10 years permanently depending

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Carolina Valdivia: Again on like one's individual cases. But a lot of the times families were searching for some type of immigration relief to no avail. And so they consulted multiple immigration lawyers.

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Carolina Valdivia: They had maybe US citizen spouses or children that they really were fighting hard to reunite with in the United States.

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Carolina Valdivia: But again, it was virtually impossible for them to be able to do so. And really this this was

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Carolina Valdivia: made all the more difficult for families who've been previously deported we enter the country and authorized and were deported. Once again, because then that triggered oftentimes permanent

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Carolina Valdivia: Permanent Bart borrowing from the United States. And so really, for me, when we're thinking about immigration reform, like we really need to be thinking

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Carolina Valdivia: Yes, absolutely. About undocumented community members who are here, but also about future migrants about people who've

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Carolina Valdivia: Already been deported and are living in this in this heightened state of vulnerability and surveillance if they return to the United States post deportation. And so that's that's kind of where a lot of my work is also headed

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Frances Contreras: I just wanted to add. Thank you for that comment because one of the

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Frances Contreras: Issues. I wanted to bring up is we need that this current moment and the experiences under this administration really need to inform how we go forward, right, because there have been incredibly gross abuses of

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Frances Contreras: Human Rights beyond civil rights, human rights that we need to ensure their safeguards as we go forward and we didn't. We haven't talked about family separation. We haven't

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Frances Contreras: You know, gotten into, you know, the children that are still in cages at the border, even though they were mandated to be released, but I think that there that these are really important.

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Frances Contreras: You know events that have occurred that really need to inform and so I agree with you how immigration reform moves forward that the experiences today of those that have been separated of those that have been denied rights and various you know sectors needs to be addressed.

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David FitzGerald: Okay, well, we have lots of time for discussion. We have about three minutes for discussion and we have several questions.

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David FitzGerald: The first is coming from David Cook my theme. It's a question directed to your doctor and they get on one sinus.

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David FitzGerald: You stress this book as a contribution to how we think about citizenship and legality.

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David FitzGerald: Can you outline what specific aspect of the conversation on citizenship is pushed further by the collective work. I was thinking that you undercut and expose the egalitarian myth underlying citizenship something along those lines.

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): I can start and then I would welcome any of the other four

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): Are three authors to also jump in. Yeah. So I think that there are, I mean, we could talk for probably 30 minutes about just this question.

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): Um, I think that absolutely this question around sort of the get a gala Terry and miss the the

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): Conception around. What does it mean to have to be deserving of an earn citizenship is like absolutely central to this to this contradiction and understanding that that was actually a created

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): A created metric that that is not sort of, um, you know, sort of legally embedded in any way in in immigration law. It was it was it was a constructed a structure that sought to exclude and other right the

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): Nicholas didn't have a talks about, you know, sort of be with every, every legalization is also an legalization. I think it very much is rooted in this idea right that anytime we are drawing a border around

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): Maybe borders in the best use of the word here. And can we draw a line to make a ring around a certain grouping of people, it is about the inclusion of backward me to people. It is also about the very active process of leaving out the others who are outside of that of that ring.

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): I also think sort of another piece to this that that we feel like is really important in terms of the book is that

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): The book and the contributions of the authors really are making a very intentional effort to think about what an intersection analysis of undocumented life.

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): And therefore what an intersection analysis around citizenship and illegality means and what it and what it takes to do that kind of work. And I think that

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): It's really important because there are so many ways in which sort of the

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): The undocumented community is is sort of seen in this monolithic way.

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): And they are seen and made as migrant subjects in that process. That means something very specific and prescriptive right in terms of sort of

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): Income and the kind of work and then we can separate out sort of the dreamers as a part of that in terms of you know what what what a dreamer looks like and is and has achieved.

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): One of the things that I think that we push on here is thinking about what it means to think about being a

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): You know, a queer an undocumented as a central part of a undocumented life in this country what it means to be a student on academic probation as an undocumented student

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): Who is a part of this legacy of folks who fought for you to be there and then to struggle to be on academic probation, that is a part of the undocumented experience, right, the experience of being

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): Not educated not i'm not stellar and sort of these formal metrics that exist.

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): But just a mom who's concerned about the survival of her children and a hostile racial context and that propelling her towards activism and that is a part of the undocumented experience in this country. And so, to me the question around

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): Sort of how this work, uh, you know,

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): Shifts and shapes the way that we think about citizenship and legality is in a lot of ways, the insistence that in thinking about undocumented identity and and documented navigation in this country. At this time, requires that kind of intersection will analysis.

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David FitzGerald: Okay, another question related to citizenship from Maryland McGrath, can you expand on what you mean by immigrant rights and compare them with citizens rights.

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David FitzGerald: This is not directed turn anyone in particular, say never too late to answer from the bay.

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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): I know that Genevieve commented, unless I can say a little bit about the way that being as we mentioned kind of allies accompanying the the immigrant rights movement, the

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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): The centering of people who are in positions as immigrants, unable to legalize their status unable to access legal protections

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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): Unable to get away from the daily fear of potential deportation and family separation that set of rights that is based on the this this legal, political

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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): Social, economic context that that defines what what illegality means in any particular historical moment.

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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): As opposed to who we think of, not to say that, you know, as we've been discussing citizenship is already always equally.

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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): Experienced by everyone, or that all people who are citizens automatically get all the rights that we were told there are part of that category.

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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): But citizenship, then moves away from those specific aspects of rights that immigrants are having to fight for. That's my understanding. I don't know if anyone else wants to chime in.

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): I'll just add very briefly that I think the other piece of this is that I think there is this um

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): This sentiment that sometimes it's explicit and sometimes it's implicit that immigrants should be a little bit bashful about asking for rights, there is the sentiment that um that that immigrants don't really deserve rights. But if we are

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): feeling particularly generous than then then then maybe will grant them. I think the assertion around the the dignity of

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): Immigrants and the rights that is a

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): That should be inherent to the the the migrant as a person and the immigrant experience, to me, is actually politically really important

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): In saying, you know, we're not talking about immigrant rights in a way that is bashful. We're not saying you know what we really want, we really

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): You know, we really know that this is a little bit out of, out of balance, but we really hope that no we we are unabashedly and resolute

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): And clear very clear politically that immigrants deserve rights, and that that is something that we shouldn't be, um, I'm pretending to be sort of sidestepping that there is an explicit political imperative that we understand migrant rights as human rights.

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David FitzGerald: Okay so Alyssa, you just mentioned ship. Here's a question about that issue from Ledesma

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David FitzGerald: My question focuses on the ways that Alice ship is built the metaphors, the framing of the book makes a lot of sense given the unintended consequences that come with using a construct that reduces people do an archetype.

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David FitzGerald: Or wherever there seems to have been a practical political expediency that motivated the need for that archetype.

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David FitzGerald: How do we continue to build Alice ship among non undocumented agents in our society who are in a position to support and who may view the dreamer narrative as an echo

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David FitzGerald: Of MLK and Langston Hughes aspirational vision of a more inclusive America is there another metaphor that can better facilitate that.

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): I don't want to put them on the spot, but I kind of feel like our metaphor expert. Should I

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): should share some thoughts on that one.

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Joel Sati: Yeah, so I mean I've been thinking about this question for for quite a bit.

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Joel Sati: So in terms of

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Joel Sati: Building Alice ship.

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Joel Sati: So one of the things that I've been thinking about, especially when it comes to the increasing similarities between criminal criminal enforcement and immigration enforcement, for example.

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Joel Sati: And like looking at and struggle in trying to fight mass incarceration.

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Joel Sati: And ways in which the struggle against mass incarceration can aid and also can be aided by the struggle against

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Joel Sati: The kinds of immigration, like immigration detention, especially the way it's being carried out now. Um, and

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Joel Sati: I don't mean my intuition is, I don't think that would require the kind of pernicious archetypes that, for example, would I guess need to exist or that do exist when it comes to like dreamers or trying to

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Joel Sati: Construct

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Joel Sati: A being that's deserving like a kind of sort of almost something something that's not real. But I think in focusing

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Joel Sati: And I think it just focuses on like these, these sort of our kind of our ship that can be drawn between like mass incarceration and immigration detention.

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Joel Sati: Um, I think it presupposes you know institutions are imperfect, but also the people that you know that need to be helped, or themselves on. And there's nothing wrong with that, um,

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Joel Sati: And you know, we owe it to bring people who we think are, you know, we ought to bring all people in back into society, no matter what they've done so like

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Joel Sati: Um, that's, that's, that's one example that I can think of. But it definitely something that I that I don't have to think about, you know, a lot more

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David FitzGerald: Question from your seat and look at me and Tunisia, how can we apply this integration policy in North Africa.

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David FitzGerald: And countries like Tunisia, because in my country, we have a serious integration problem concerning the foreign born African population and maybe more generally, or there's some some broader comparative lessons here that would apply outside the US context.

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): I'm not sure I'm not sure how generalizable, this is outside of the US contract. I think that we are seeing a general rise and fascism across the globe. I think that we are seeing some very clear.

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): Similarities around sort of the tightening of borders and the construction and villain ization vilification of the other, which is often sort of located in the the migrant body or the body, who is actively migrating um I don't want to pretend like I know more about

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): That than I do in terms of sort of how

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): How much traction, or how generalizable the arguments that we're making in this book would apply to two other particular cases.

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Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): But I do think that we see ourselves as a part of an international um set of forces that is trying to push back on the rise of fascism through and in which migration and immigration is coming to be sort of constituted as a central front of that of that fight.

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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): And as part of that. I would just add that

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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): There's at the core of this project is the recognition that that experience of being made. The other of being targeted by changing policies that all of that also

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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): Leads to experiences that are important to highlight and to center and trying to understand how to resist them and how to create change and how to be more inclusive.

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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): That will look different in different political contexts.

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David FitzGerald: We have a question from Paloma vas director of regular discussed the embodied and emotional work that theorizing and writing and docu theory involves. I wonder if chapter contributors would like to expand on this process.

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Carolina Valdivia: I could jump in. So this is in my mind a lie. And I feel like this could be in its own Whole other book or a series of books.

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Carolina Valdivia: Because it's very, very complicated and it's something that I've been thinking about when the minute I decided to pursue graduate studies and it's a roller coaster of emotions in many ways.

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Carolina Valdivia: Even I was just telling Genevieve that as I was reading some of the quotes like I found myself shaking

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Carolina Valdivia: And so even when I'm writing as I'm thinking as I'm reading another work on immigration, it's, it becomes very difficult to escape.

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Carolina Valdivia: Something that is so deeply personal to me and to many other people that have caught up with many of the people that I interviewed and still keep in touch with

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Carolina Valdivia: And so that's why like it. It can be very difficult to engage in this process when it comes to conducting the interviews themselves or even when we're designing the project or writing about it, presenting about it, etc.

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Carolina Valdivia: every facet is really informed by by our own position ality. With that said, one of the things that I didn't learn quickly enough. But eventually did is that I constantly needed to check in with myself emotionally

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Carolina Valdivia: Rather than pushing it away because I know as Dr. Better go mentioned it. This is definitely something that many of was try to repress

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Carolina Valdivia: At one point or another. For me, that's something for sure that growing up. It was just easier not to think about the threat of deportation and what it would mean

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Carolina Valdivia: And so now when I'm sitting with an open Word document. And I'm like, trying to put really what I'm seeing in the spaces and capturing it in a way that also does justice to community members. I'm forced to to really dig deeper into many of those memories. I've tried to repress

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Carolina Valdivia: And so much of what was shared with me as well during the interview. So that was challenging and difficult on their own to process and carry with me.

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Carolina Valdivia: And so I think just to say that for any one else who also identifies as a scholar who is a documented right currently or formerly

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Carolina Valdivia: I found it at least imperatives to constantly check in with myself and constantly reimagine ways of taking care of myself. During this process, whether that means memory. We're talking with others surrounding myself in these types of communities.

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Carolina Valdivia: That's one of the things that was really helpful with that as we were writing these chapters. So we had each other to count on.

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Carolina Valdivia: Of course we had Lacey and Genovese that would offer very detailed feedback and insights and would also help us process. Some of those emotions. And I think those conversations are very crucial as we continue to move this work forward.

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David FitzGerald: So kind of like you just mentioned the idea of position ality and and for all the panelists and getting to the core concept of the book.

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David FitzGerald: What do you think comes out of this book that one would not have gotten from reading a book with the more traditional academic model of outsiders writing about people who are not living those experiences themselves.

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Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): I mean I'm biased, but I think there's a there's a depth to the work that is

408

01:09:24.060 --> 01:09:28.650

Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): Is palpable. There's a depth to the

409

01:09:29.940 --> 01:09:49.650

Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): The ability to get at how these experiences. These ascribed identities these legal policies, these, you know, all these historical moments how all of that plays out together all at once. Right, so there's there's this way that that only comes from

410

01:09:50.670 --> 01:10:14.970

Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): Having experienced it and and being committed to telling it in those complex ways and and what I want to say too is that, as someone who was trained in sociology my PhD is in that field methods are so important. And that's how that's how I I was trained as a first generation scholar.

411

01:10:16.080 --> 01:10:33.480

Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): And now I'm in an ethnic studies department and have given myself the space to think about what that all means what methods we use why I was told so often that I shouldn't be studying my people, because I'm too close and I'm biased and why I should be comfortable

412

01:10:34.500 --> 01:10:44.850

Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): As being perceived so often as as Central American as a an object of study and not as the, the fear is the person who

413

01:10:45.510 --> 01:11:07.080

Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): can conduct rigorous research right I've, I've come on this journey, not wanting to reproduce that in my own scholarship and also recognize that the work is rigorous in different ways. Maybe not in the ways of counting and having large enough end and you know having

414

01:11:08.100 --> 01:11:15.690

Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): The things that we've been told, are the ways to achieve non biased work, but it's rigorous in the sense that you're capturing

415

01:11:15.960 --> 01:11:27.750

Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): Experiences to more fully revealed the the lives the messiness of it all in ways that are impossible if you're really trying to stick into categories and

416

01:11:27.990 --> 01:11:42.900

Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): And boxes that we can count. And I think that comes through in so many of these chapters when people are willing to be vulnerable and write in ways where they're they're holding themselves accountable to the scholarship to the

417

01:11:43.620 --> 01:11:51.600

Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): Literary field that they're in, but also that they're holding themselves accountable to community and that matters.

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01:11:53.550 --> 01:11:57.390

David FitzGerald: Thank you, other panelists. Would you care to reflect on that question.

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01:11:59.370 --> 01:12:08.250

Carolina Valdivia: Yeah, I would. I would also add that to me this. I feel like this unique position ality really helps to amplify some of those nuances that are associated with

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01:12:08.730 --> 01:12:21.090

Carolina Valdivia: The lived experiences have been documented and this includes of course the profound effects that the lack of legal status can have on how we understand the world, our identity others the relationships that were forming with others.

421

01:12:22.050 --> 01:12:40.110

Carolina Valdivia: And really how it manifests itself at an even deeper level so unconsciously or one of the things that I was exploring more carefully with my own work. It's really looking at how immigration enforcement manifests itself in the form of nightmares recurring nightmares. More specifically,

422

01:12:41.340 --> 01:12:50.580

Carolina Valdivia: And so again, like I feel like this unique person precision ality is really well equipped to dig deeper into those things that we often hold on conscious

423

01:12:56.100 --> 01:12:58.440

Joel Sati: I think so. To add to what's been said before.

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01:13:00.480 --> 01:13:06.870

Joel Sati: I think what's important about this work and the fact that it's undocumented scholars a formal document. It's called that are writing this is that

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01:13:08.040 --> 01:13:09.810

Joel Sati: It demonstrates a sense of agency.

426

01:13:11.100 --> 01:13:12.240

Joel Sati: In the sense that

427

01:13:13.650 --> 01:13:24.480

Joel Sati: It's the people who are most affected that are charting the course forward that are you know that are calling the existing literature to account. Um, and

428

01:13:25.560 --> 01:13:27.390

Joel Sati: To also

429

01:13:29.070 --> 01:13:30.510

Joel Sati: I guess emphasize is that

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01:13:32.790 --> 01:13:35.850

Joel Sati: That even while being in documented is what it is.

431

01:13:38.580 --> 01:13:45.060

Joel Sati: Yeah, that that it is you know it's you know it's like the fact that I'm writing about this. The fact that it's

432

01:13:46.590 --> 01:13:47.820

Joel Sati: Yeah, like as

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01:13:48.870 --> 01:13:56.850

Joel Sati: I think lady said, um, you know, it's like we live the stakes of the work. So I think it's important that we're in a position where we can take it.

434

01:13:57.930 --> 01:14:00.090

Joel Sati: You know, we're taking it seriously. We

435

01:14:01.710 --> 01:14:02.190

Joel Sati: And

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01:14:04.260 --> 01:14:10.890

Joel Sati: And I think having been appreciating that I'm appreciating the position that undocumented scholars are. And I think that's

437

01:14:11.580 --> 01:14:21.330

Joel Sati: One of the things that I like about being part of this project and being able to to honor the experiences of those who don't have the opportunity that I do to sort of like contribute in this way.

438

01:14:28.740 --> 01:14:30.240

David FitzGerald: Thanks. Okay, so we have a

439

01:14:31.620 --> 01:14:36.840

David FitzGerald: Lengthy question here, which is difficult to summarize, so I'll just read this is coming from.

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01:14:37.710 --> 01:14:46.500

David FitzGerald: Jacob Thomas my vernacular understanding of the immigration dream is that this dream is more generally hope for a better life by migrating to another place.

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01:14:46.950 --> 01:14:55.110

David FitzGerald: But I still think that this dream is positionally and subjectively different for someone who spent most of the life in a country and fears being deported to a place that they're unfamiliar with.

442

01:14:55.620 --> 01:15:00.690

David FitzGerald: And someone that voluntarily left that place. Nonetheless, as you have offered this insight.

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01:15:01.230 --> 01:15:14.880

David FitzGerald: How the dream has become an ascribed identity or subjectivity, a dreamer I constraining ideological structure that divides undocumented immigrants, rather than as a motivating aspiration under how much you think you were challenging the idea, not

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01:15:17.490 --> 01:15:19.950

David FitzGerald: Sorry, I said the people right this moves in my screen here.

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David FitzGerald: Okay, so let me see here where this went

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01:15:36.270 --> 01:15:45.270

David FitzGerald: Okay, so, nonetheless, as you've offered this insight, how the dream has become as described identity or subjectivity, a dreamer constraining ideological structure that divides undocumented immigrants, rather than

447

01:15:45.570 --> 01:15:52.290

David FitzGerald: As a motivating aspiration. I wonder how much you think you are challenging the idea, not just the dreamer, but the whole immigration dream idea.

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01:15:52.590 --> 01:16:02.130

David FitzGerald: As tied to deserving THIS AND I'M PRIVILEGED become a member of society, instead of reserving a right to move across borders to be able to accomplish that dream.

449

01:16:07.770 --> 01:16:10.980

David FitzGerald: Any reactions to that issue around

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01:16:12.720 --> 01:16:15.060

David FitzGerald: The notion of dreaming and different. Thanks.

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01:16:17.820 --> 01:16:19.260

David FitzGerald: So go ahead, Lucy.

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01:16:21.180 --> 01:16:31.260

David FitzGerald: Oh, sorry. I thought, I thought your system of these questions. I mean, you can see them yourselves and some of them might lend themselves better to, you know, independently corresponding the question or here is a new one from

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01:16:31.650 --> 01:16:33.120

Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): An offer a quick thought on that if

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01:16:34.140 --> 01:16:44.940

Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): I mean, it's a quick thought to what is I'm still like you know marinating on it, but my very quick answer to that would be, I think that we envision a politic of dreaming that says

455

01:16:45.630 --> 01:16:54.150

Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): That fundamentally everybody should have the right to migrate, if that's what they choose to do. And fundamentally, everybody should have the choose to stay at home if that's what they choose to do

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01:16:54.540 --> 01:17:05.970

Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): To me that is the. It may sound like an overly simplistic sort of formulation. But to me, this it becomes wrapped up in all of these other conversations right around sort of migration is beautiful.

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01:17:06.390 --> 01:17:16.110

Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): Yes, but also migration is is terrible for many right um, this, this. ANGELA I would invite you to jump in as well. But so to me.

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01:17:16.650 --> 01:17:25.590

Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): It may sound overly simplistic, but that's that's honestly, the way that I think about it is that it is it we are we are we are trying to articulate a politic of dreaming that is about

459

01:17:26.970 --> 01:17:34.320

Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): Being able to ultimately have the self determination to be able to make a life.

460

01:17:34.680 --> 01:17:46.320

Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): Where you choose to make a life. And if you choose to to uproot your family and cross the border to do so, then you have a right fundamentally a human right to be able to make a life.

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01:17:47.010 --> 01:18:00.480

Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): A safe life in that new place a. Additionally, because we all know that the causes of migration are, you know, people don't people don't wake up one day and decide to uproot their lives and risk their lives in order to make a move like this.

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01:18:01.410 --> 01:18:13.440

Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): That the that the converse of that is also true is also right that that every person should have a right to stay in our homeland and to be safe and to be protected and to have what they need, in that life as well.

463

01:18:14.910 --> 01:18:16.020

Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): Joel or not you want to jump in.

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01:18:17.040 --> 01:18:34.140

Joel Sati: And think about this question actually thought like the idea of integration is a dream descriptive way. And I was thinking, well, that's not exactly correct, um, in the sense that, you know, right, what motivates people to move the war, the displacement be

465

01:18:35.160 --> 01:18:36.870

Joel Sati: A lack of opportunity where they are.

466

01:18:38.490 --> 01:18:44.580

Joel Sati: And so, and also one of the things that I was thinking of, especially when it comes to the idea of like deserving and privilege to

467

01:18:44.910 --> 01:18:50.550

Joel Sati: Become a member of society. I kept on thinking about the idea of what immigration is a line and then I'm one of the sort of like

468

01:18:50.820 --> 01:18:57.120

Joel Sati: One of the rhetoric that some of the rhetoric that's mobilized, it gets documented, for instance, like they're cutting in line and they're sort of like

469

01:18:57.330 --> 01:19:08.640

Joel Sati: Trying to take it trying to sort of unjustly take advantage of this process of what it means to like deserve citizenship, but but the thing is like immigration is really not Elian. It's not linear. It's very

470

01:19:10.800 --> 01:19:27.180

Joel Sati: It. Yeah, it's, it's very unorganized to two birdies frames. And so in terms of like if you thought about immigration as a dream in terms of like that's what people. Yeah. Want to do. I don't think that tracks so

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01:19:28.890 --> 01:19:34.890

David FitzGerald: Let's stick with that theme of deserving of citizenship that you just mentioned, Joel. Here's the second question for Maryland McGrath

472

01:19:36.000 --> 01:19:41.940

David FitzGerald: Related to her first, how do you incorporate a country's need for a border and the ability to decide who comes to their country.

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01:19:42.300 --> 01:19:52.890

David FitzGerald: With your dialogue that migrants, per se, deserve the same rights as citizens, I guess my question is, do you see a need. At the end of the day for an immigration long or do you see open borders as where we need to go.

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01:19:54.060 --> 01:19:55.530

Joel Sati: I'm 100% for open borders.

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01:19:59.160 --> 01:20:01.860

Joel Sati: Yeah, yeah. So I in terms of

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01:20:03.030 --> 01:20:17.280

Joel Sati: In terms of the game i think i think i i already for open borders. Um, but I also know that you know it's not going to happen tomorrow or anything. And I think it's also trying to negotiate what it would mean

477

01:20:19.290 --> 01:20:23.970

Joel Sati: In the, in the daily life of immigrants as we're moving toward an endgame of open borders.

478

01:20:27.210 --> 01:20:36.390

Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): I also think that in this political moment. And in this political climate, the idea of open borders is often sort of used as a red herring, it's, it's used as a way to sort of

479

01:20:38.010 --> 01:20:45.930

Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): The tracks and and sort of cast a what immigrant rights means in a way that that is sort of

480

01:20:46.950 --> 01:20:56.910

Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): Sort of playing upon sort of nationalistic fears and to me, you know, like I like I said earlier, you know, obviously migration is a consequence of international policy that is that's

481

01:20:57.210 --> 01:21:03.240

Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): Very well documented were very clear. And so, to me, the question is not about, you know, um,

482

01:21:03.780 --> 01:21:18.930

Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): Are we for or against open borders, I would sidestep that entirely and I will read to me. The question is, how do we envision a future in which all of us, all of us, all of us are safe have what we need to survive and I'm

483

01:21:19.980 --> 01:21:33.720

Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): A situation in which our basic fundamental rights are not called into question. That to me is the question. That to me is when we think about well what what is, what is the, what are we moving towards what is the solution and what are we calling for, to me, that's it.

484

01:21:36.090 --> 01:21:39.480

Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): And we might think of that as freedom, right, if we think about

485

01:21:41.580 --> 01:21:52.860

Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): What what everyone is looking for the safety that you mentioned the chance to have access to the basic things that guarantee human dignity.

486

01:21:53.100 --> 01:22:01.110

Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): And to have that anywhere on the globe. Why should only one nationality versus another have that access. Right. And we know

487

01:22:01.770 --> 01:22:08.640

Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): As you know, I'm just echoing basically that the things that have been said that that it's because of

488

01:22:08.970 --> 01:22:19.740

Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): In many ways, US foreign policy, in particular, that so many of us have ended up here if we had open borders without any of that inequality.

489

01:22:20.040 --> 01:22:35.730

Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): Then it wouldn't be an issue. People would come and go as they need knowing that they're safe and they can eat and that they can live and find dignity, wherever they are. So the, the, I agree that the open borders question.

490

01:22:37.260 --> 01:22:56.340

Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): is problematic because it assumes that the world can only exist in the kind of inequality that we have now. But if we were to change that, if we reframed rethought all of that. Then open borders wouldn't be an issue. You know, we'd be calling for everybody to be okay.

491

01:22:59.790 --> 01:23:10.200

David FitzGerald: So we're down to our last couple of minutes, but I would like to invite a quick lightning round from the two editors, the two authors, as well as are discussing.

492

01:23:11.220 --> 01:23:18.090

David FitzGerald: Could you each pick out one point that we haven't yet discussed that's in the book that you would like to leave the audience with

493

01:23:19.320 --> 01:23:22.830

David FitzGerald: Perhaps we could start again with the same order with you. Lacey

494

01:23:25.410 --> 01:23:44.190

Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): It's a very rich book, what I'll say is that one of the things I've gained from the process is that I've learned so much about what it means to be an ethical and thoughtful researcher from the people who are forging their way in this field now and

495

01:23:44.700 --> 01:23:58.590

Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): And that I'm really inspired by the work that several of them are taking on as a result of of meeting through this project. And I'm very much looking forward to what their scholarship will bring us in the coming years.

496

01:24:02.490 --> 01:24:16.620

Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): I just want to thank everyone for, for being here for participating, thank you to Dr. Contrast for the for the really wonderful commentary, you know, to me, the, the one sort of last thing that all that I'll add is that

497

01:24:18.690 --> 01:24:26.460

Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): The fact that this was such a well attended event that the questions are so sharp signals to me how how hungry. We are

498

01:24:27.270 --> 01:24:31.980

Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): As a community to be able to think about these questions and new and different and nuanced ways

499

01:24:32.310 --> 01:24:38.370

Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): And the works in this book have pushed my own thinking have pushed my own scholarship a push my own

500

01:24:38.670 --> 01:24:45.360

Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): I'm thinking as a researcher and as a writer in terms of what it means to really rise to the occasion and ask the critical question so

501

01:24:45.840 --> 01:24:57.360

Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): It's really just such an honor to me to be included in in a project with these incredible scholars and I am thrilled to see the reception more broadly in the world and to

502

01:24:57.960 --> 01:25:04.830

Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): Do whatever I can to promote to promote their work. So thank you all so much. Thank you to the contributors, for being here as well.

503

01:25:07.950 --> 01:25:09.090

Joel Sati: Yeah, I think.

504

01:25:10.350 --> 01:25:24.570

Joel Sati: One of the things that I want to leave the participants with as it's very I'm really, it's very important that this work is is happening now in this context, I think.

505

01:25:25.830 --> 01:25:37.770

Joel Sati: In this administration, it would be easy to, I don't know, go back in the shadows, it'd be easy to like or it might be prudent to not want to

506

01:25:38.700 --> 01:25:47.010

Joel Sati: Advertise Your, your, your lackluster eyes, but I think the fact that, like this work is happening now that it's undocumented scholars putting out this kind of work now.

507

01:25:48.720 --> 01:25:58.890

Joel Sati: It's something that I'm that I really am appreciative of and it's something that I'm really impressed by. And so to have, you know, my fellow co authors.

508

01:25:59.760 --> 01:26:13.860

Joel Sati: You know, put themselves out there and and produce this kind of rigorous amazing work. It's something that like, I'm very impressed by it. I'm very honored by it, and for that to happen in this in this context is something that shouldn't be shouldn't be underestimated.

509

01:26:17.250 --> 01:26:26.490

Carolina Valdivia: And one last thing that I would like to emphasize is really to encourage us to think carefully about the long term consequences of going up and documented.

510

01:26:26.880 --> 01:26:34.890

Carolina Valdivia: Which this book, I think really speaks to that. And so I'm really excited for everyone to check it out. Because as you read through these stories, really think about

511

01:26:35.160 --> 01:26:44.970

Carolina Valdivia: How many of the community members whose experiences are captured in this book will continue to experience many of these emotions and challenges and traumatic experiences for years.

512

01:26:45.240 --> 01:26:56.550

Carolina Valdivia: Even in the cases where some of them are able to adjust their immigration status and. So really think about the not the ripple effects, but also the cumulative and lasting effects of our current immigration system.

513

01:26:59.610 --> 01:27:06.420

Frances Contreras: And I just like to add, I think it was a really important critique that Dr. Negative one Gonzales raised was that

514

01:27:06.870 --> 01:27:21.420

Frances Contreras: Docker wasn't enough. And so I just want to reiterate the Docker was never enough that it was a compromise and it was def very much a compromise, so that we shouldn't settle for a new iteration of Dhaka in this next round.

515

01:27:22.680 --> 01:27:38.730

Frances Contreras: And so I just want to leave the audience with the idea that we all have a lot of work to do. And in the next round. We need to be cognizant about securing the full rights not only of undocumented students but undocumented families and documented communities and really

516

01:27:40.110 --> 01:27:51.390

Frances Contreras: You know, take into account the intersection that securing those rights means for us when we're talking about the targeting and the racism that they experience in everyday life.

517

01:27:54.450 --> 01:28:04.350

David FitzGerald: Well, thank you to everyone to to all five of the panelists for sharing your expertise, as I said, this is the, the first of our

518

01:28:04.920 --> 01:28:13.590

David FitzGerald: Fall book seminar series panels and if you would like to join us again next week we'll be discussing Argentina and the modern Middle East.

519

01:28:13.920 --> 01:28:24.690

David FitzGerald: The author is Lily mellow yet she's a professor at UC Santa Cruz with a discussion by Professor Stacy fair and hold and the Department of History at UC Davis.

520

01:28:25.080 --> 01:28:31.410

David FitzGerald: All this information is online at the websites of CCS and the UCLA Center for the Study of international migration.

521

01:28:31.800 --> 01:28:36.690

David FitzGerald: Again, thanks to everyone for for coming out. And if you would like to read the book, which I highly recommend

522

01:28:37.020 --> 01:28:46.590

David FitzGerald: You can get the information about it. You can order it directly from Duke University Press. It's affordably priced for classroom adoption and and thanks again hope to see you next week.

523

01:28:48.090 --> 01:28:49.320

Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales (she/her): Thanks so much for having us.

524

01:28:51.720 --> 01:28:52.620

Leisy Abrego (she/her/ella): Thank you.

525

01:28:53.790 --> 01:28:54.630

Joel Sati: Thanks for having

526

01:28:56.220 --> 01:28:56.970

Frances Contreras: Me everyone


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